A call to reason - TTLG Forums

TheCapedPillager on 11/5/2009 at 19:06

After seeing some of the threads in the Deus Ex 3 forums descend into a cesspit of bile (things may have improved but I haven't been back in a while) I felt compelled to post something to offer some perspective regarding Thief 4.
There's nothing wrong with speculation and stating your wishes for Thief 4 (I'm sure I'll be doing some of this in the coming months), but let's not allow our fears to dominate the discussion.

There's a catch 22 situation here.

Without the same classic thief experience that we all want, there's a chance that the fans will be disappointed, but if EM aren't given the freedom to be as creative as they want then there's a chance they will end up making a game that ticks all the right boxes and yet is only a shadow of what it could be. We need to step back and let EM know that all we want is for them to treat the Thief universe with respect, we don't want to stifle their creativity by pressurising them to make a carbon copy of what it was that we loved about TDP/TMA/TDS.

That's not to say that restrictions aren't sometimes a good thing. As a FM designer I've found that trying to build to DromEd's miniscule poly limit has occasionally created more aesthetically pleasing areas than I had originally planned as I was able to workaround the limitations. The restrictions that led to some of the major complaints of TDS on the other hand (awkward 1st/3rd person, missing briefing videos, small maps) were, I think, driven by corporate decisions beyond ISA's control and they did pretty well considering. I hope that EM are given as much freedom as they need, from above as well as from us fans.

This is a call to reason to the EM developers as much as to my fellow taffers. I think we need to trust EM to produce something great. We mustn't expect and don't want them to bend to every fans whim. A game built to sate the loudest or most passionate pleas won't necessarily be a good game.

Having said this, if Garrett grows a pair of tits and starts wearing hot pants I'm taking my bow and arrows and booking the first flight to Montreal. Just saying.:devil:

Renzatic on 11/5/2009 at 19:17

Best thing to do is get the usual arguments out of the way forthwith so we can move on to better things. So...

-The 4 in Thi4f totally sucks and shows they don't care about us.

-The font in Thi4f is totally wrong. The T has more curve on it and they don't care about us

-I feel that Eidos is pandering to the lowest common denominator and they don't care about us.

-I saw a screenshot with arrows pointing out all the loot and glowing footprints showing people the best way to traverse the level. They've dumbed Thief down for the console kiddies and obviously don't care about us.

-Randy Smith sold us out. He doesn't care about us.

-I had some white trash thug wannabe steal my wallet without any subtlety. Obviously the Xbox360 version of Thi4f Deadly Blue Shadows influenced him badly and he doesn't know a thing about the nuances of Lytha style and they don't care about us.

-I'd write a petition begging Eidos to not make Thi4f suck, but it'd be a waste of time cuz they don't care about us.

-GWAAAAAA (Rick Dangerous Scream)

I think that should cover the worst of it until the screenshots start showing up. Gird your loins.

Garrettwannabe on 11/5/2009 at 19:39

How dare you ask for civility in all the excitement of the announcement? :sly: /sarcasm

Great post sir & went back and found this response from EvilSpirit (Project Lead Designer Thief 1 & 2) and would hope we will give Eidos Montreal the lattitude to develop the game they way they see WITH also being able to visit these forums for constructive feedback and support.

That was the great thing about LGS folks coming in here during the development of the T1/TG/T2 games. IMHO, We tried to respect they had to keep some stuff from us while still feeling welcomed enough to visit the forums and really listen to (and incorporate some of..) our feedback without being barraged with bitching.

Quote:

From EvilSpirit

* answering about lack of information from ION (T3) developers...

"If I had to guess? Maybe the fact that this is not the place to announce information that you'd much rather announce in a press release, at the proper time, as part of an actual publicity campaign. You know, the way these things are usually done. What makes you think they should blow that just to shut down some witch hunt?

I know you guys are hungry for information, but c'mon, let them do their jobs."

* later thread post discussing IMO the fine line they must walk as developers/in touch with the community...

"And it's worth noting that, careful as I tried to be, I was taken to task more than once for some piece of information that I either actually posted or (more often) was attributed to me or exaggerated from something I had actually said. So I'm sympathetic to Warren's (and Emil's) position here. As soon as an imbroglio like this starts, you have to be very careful about what you say."

(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4854&page=3) TTLG forum Link

jtr7 on 11/5/2009 at 19:44

I can already see the rigid mindset crystallising throughout the land. No matter what evidence to the contrary, no matter how much information the devs generously shovel at us, there will always be a frightening percentage who just see their own fears and anger as reality. What new threads of disgust are already being woven and needled into the fabric of Thief fandom?

sethL on 11/5/2009 at 19:45

Quote Posted by Renzatic

I love you.

Master Taffer 512 on 11/5/2009 at 20:05

The one that always gets me is the dogging on console gamers. Being a firm console gamer myself, it just looks arrogant to hear that kind of verbal diarhea spewing from a PC gamer's mouth. Simply because someone prefers a controller to a keyboard does not make them social retards in any way like some people would lead you to believe.

It just smacks of that exasperated console war I'm so sick of. Just because someone likes one type of video game platform does not make them your social superior or inferior. It just means he has different tastes. To put yourself above them just makes you a delusional horse's ass.

Dia on 11/5/2009 at 21:50

I have no issues/biases with console games. Hell; when TombRaider came out with a PC game I went out & bought a controller for my PC which was almost identical to my PS2 controller. ('Course, that TR sucked mightily.) My only issue is that the devs created TDS for X-Box first, then converted it for the PC. Imho, that destroyed the enjoyment factor of the game for me, making it far too linear.

jtr7 on 11/5/2009 at 23:21

Master Taffer 512: I'm sorry you feel personally threatened when the insults are meant for those whom enjoy things we never want to see in Thief again, and didn't like the third and final act of the trilogy compromised to match console limitations. Don't consider yourself the target when the characteristics don't include you personally. Based on the points you bring up, it's not at all about your controller preference, but the PC gamer's controller preference catering to a console format. Back then, mixing the two formats was literally about taking away player control, shrinking The City, and giving it a quality that appeals mostly to children. Even though there are plenty of console titles that don't have the "bad" characteristics, and the consoles of today have significantly increased memory and power, the stink of the past lingers, and the PC gamers are reminded every time they go to play Deadly Shadows. It didn't help that the games made by "MIT students for MIT students" felt compromised for a younger, less educated (not necessarily stupid, but there was a lot of that) demographic.:erg:

PC gamers are pissed off because the feel of the games, the past memory limitations of the consoles, the controls, etc. were imposed on the PC, which makes no sense for a PC game. A lot of classic and comfortable gameplay was mangled due to catering to the console market.

And the PC gamers who hate consoles, hate them for taking over the industry in this decade, and leaving the greater potential for bigger games with greater and finer control in the dust. Though most gamers did not intend to strangle the PC gaming industry, they did.

Don't own the animosity and the bitterness as a personal attack.:) And if you get to know us, you will find that the nastiest comments come from people who are generally nasty, and do not speak on all our behalf.:angel:

I hope that clears things up, and I'm really sorry you or someone you know has been a kind of "victim" of a kind of bigotry.

TheCapedPillager on 11/5/2009 at 23:56

Quote Posted by jtr7

Master Taffer 512:
I hope that clears things up, and I'm really sorry you or someone you know has been a kind of "victim" of a kind of bigotry.

Well said jtr7. Around the time Thief 3 was being developed I looked down on consoles as inferior so I can see where some of the comments against them come from. I ended up buying an Xbox and thought it was great, very well integrated etc. Having said that, they are two completely different beasts, so there are some valid arguments to be had about designing for PC vs console etc.

Quote Posted by Renzatic

Best thing to do is get the usual arguments out of the way forthwith so we can move on to better things. So...

Very good! :laff::laff: Don't think it will stop any of those types of comments though! :tsktsk:

I thought I should just clarify my earlier post, in case anyone from Montreal actually reads this. When I said I didn't want Garrett growing a pair of breasts, I only meant that I didn't want Thief to turn into Tomb Raider. I have nothing against introducing a new female protagonist if the story demands it. The Eidos forums are getting a little heated about this particular issue already and I don't envy EM at this point as it would be difficult to have Garrett as the main character again, and yet if they don't do this some people will be upset. This is the kind of problem I was alluding to in my post, I just wish people could trust EM to present their own story as best they can. If there were a new female apprentice, Garrett could still be involved in the storyline as a mentor. :idea: Best of both worlds really.

Renzatic on 12/5/2009 at 00:35

I actually rather liked Thief 3, despite the glaring issues. Yeah, the levels were too small, the controls were wonky, and it lacked a few vital Thiefish things (rope arrows :mad:). But despite all these admittedly large flaws, ISA, through sheer talent, dedication, and hell, I'll be corny and say love, managed to pull it all together in the end and made it feel like Thief. It's host to some of the best missions in the series, after all.

In the end, the one thing that sucked most about T3 was that it could've been so, so much more. They had a team well up to the challenge, but poor engine choices and the Xbox's lack of ram held them back. At least now we have more powerful consoles and the TR: Underworld engine backing up the new team. Small levels definitely won't be an issue in Thief 4. Now we just gotta wait and see if EM is up to the task.