Yakoob on 22/7/2013 at 18:22
Bit of a shameless plug, but just wanted to share a story from developing and testing my own game I was just writing about:
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Quote:
Item highlight, arrows or contextual controls make “hardcore” gamers rage but developing my game I learned they're not always about dumbing, but accessibility.(
http://koobazaur.com/case-for-dumbing-down-others-deserve-to-enjoy-games/) Full Article here
TL;DR - I learned that "dumbing down" is sometimes about allowing players with slightly different skillsets but similar gaming tastes to enjoy your game. Other times, it can also be a last-minute solution to a design problem that you simply ran out of time to fix properly by redesign, often a monumental task in itself.
And other times, yes, it's just plain dumb :p
Jason Moyer on 22/7/2013 at 18:43
I dunno if Universal Ammo is the first example of dumbing down that I'd use, considering it made managing ammo more difficult in some ways. It just changes the way you manage ammo, since the more powerful weapons use significantly more resources, and you can't fall back on weaker weapons if, say, you run out of sniper or railgun ammo. I'm not saying I particularly care for that design decision, just that I don't really see how it made the game any simpler/easier.
Edit: To go further, I think dumbing down is more a result of poorly implemented systems rather than the actual systems themselves. Regenerating health, for instance, can make a game significantly easier or significantly harder than a traditional collectible-oriented healing system depending on how it's implemented. Are objective markers really any different than signposting an objective in another way, aside from being lazy design?
Muzman on 22/7/2013 at 18:56
I think you're right; it is mostly done for accessibility reasons and to paper over difficulties you don't really want there or its too late in development to deal with (particularly things like quest markers and item highlight).
The problem for me, generally, is the generational one. As more and more developers make these 'mistakes' these things become the norm and it enables a lot of lazy design trends and mistakes of its own. The testing regimes seem to reinforce this by rounding down the experience to one with the least frustration (but that is probably another thing entirely).
So to compare something to, say, Thief which a lot of people found too hard and easy to get lost in (which is what would happen when you break into a big unfamiliar mansion at night, but hey). The industry discounts the positives of a limited HUD (which is perhaps debatable anyway, but bear with me) for something more immediate. Instead of thinking harder about how to increase the challenge more slowly, build player skill and still have an involving and visually striking game you can just tack these aids on like markers and other stuff like the ability to see through walls or whatever and fix it in the mix, essentially. And I've gotten this vibe from some dev interviews before that it's just how you make games (mainstream ones); devs expect it, audiences expect it. The range of experiences you can craft and the design philosophies themselves seem to suffer however.
Obviously I don't expect everything to be some ultra realist FPS (although I probably wouldn't mind that), but I think there's flow on from this stuff that the industry can't really see sometimes and it's the cause of all the stuff we whine about in console trends generally.
Anyway it's not like I've done it or anything. It'll be interesting to see how you apply all this to game two either way.
Renault on 22/7/2013 at 19:01
I think all the "rage" you refer to is more about drastically changing an existing franchise (yes, I'm talking about Thief). I can't really see many people criticizing a brand new game coming out just because it's simplified and/or accessible. But if a game was popular and successful just the way it is, and then a sequel is dumbed down (usually with the sole purpose of gaining a larger audience), then yep, the rage is justified.
Yakoob on 22/7/2013 at 19:19
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I dunno if Universal Ammo is the first example of dumbing down that I'd use, considering it made managing ammo more difficult in some ways. It just changes the way you manage ammo, since the more powerful weapons use significantly more resources, and you can't fall back on weaker weapons if, say, you run out of sniper or railgun ammo. I'm not saying I particularly care for that design decision, just that I don't really see how it made the game any simpler/easier.
As I mentioned, it didn't bug me and felt more like a design choice with its own set of tradeoffs, but I've heard many people bitching about it and how it was a "consolitis simplifcation" that destroyed the resource-scarcity-balance thing.
EDIT: whoa how did all the other replies sneak in there? will reply later
Malleus on 22/7/2013 at 20:12
The thing I thought about when reading this, is that these 'noob' features (item highlight, objective marker, contextual marker going with the OPs examples) are only a problem when they are a fundamental part of the game design. Minor case in point: Dishonored. There you have objective markers, but you can disable them because not all people like them, and the devs realized that, which is fine. Problem is, you have no other way of finding your objetive (other than almost random exploration).
In Thief, on some missions you only had a static map and a compass, and that was awesome - hell sometimes that's the way I navigate while hiking. It's a significantly more immersive way of finding your way around, but it's not implemented anymore, because objective markers are the basis, and them being optional is the extra and no alternative is present. Just my 2 cents.
PigLick on 23/7/2013 at 01:09
Yeh thats the thing that really annoyed me about Skyrim vs Morrowind. Both great games, but the journal system in Morrowind was so much better AND immersive. In Skyrim you just ended up with a whole bunch of quests with no real info about how to achieve these other than using the quest markers, in Morrowind you actually had to figure out where to go yourself.
june gloom on 23/7/2013 at 02:58
I don't know. If there was ever a game series that was overcomplex, it's Elder Scrolls. This "swipe swipe swipe +1 to onanism" business is one of those systems that really need to be taken out back and shot, and I eagerly await the day Bethesda finally changes it to something that isn't stupid, outdated bullshit. (The outcry from neckbeards will be amazing, and their tears will be delicious.) Morrowind's business of "you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you do 1hp damage you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed" is rage-inducing and while Oblivion has many flaws, improving the actual combat portion of the game is not one of them.
PigLick on 23/7/2013 at 06:09
Yeh I wasnt really talking about the combat portion of ES games, just the "noob features" as Malleus put it.
Angel Dust on 23/7/2013 at 07:41
Not to mention that if Bethesda were to totally overhaul the combat system and replace with something more immediate like Demon's Souls' in the next Elder scrolls game, there would be rejoicing from all corners. They've been gradually trying to improve things anyway and while the results are still godawful, I've never heard anyone say "You know what? They should have stayed with Morrowind's system. Never knowing just how long I needed to wave my weapon in the enemies general direction made things super tense".
RE the topic: I'm in agreement with the likes of Muz et al. I'm certainly not against accessibility options helping less experienced gamers have a good time, it's just when they encourage lazy or ugly design that it is a problem. Valve seem to have a good handle on it but a lot of other devs else seem pretty clueless. I did think Dishonored was mostly well done though because even if it flubbed it a bit with some of the objective markers being the only real way of knowing what to do things, everything was togglable and if you turned everything off there was some other visual clue you could use e.g. the way Corvo would hold his weapon when crouched.
