Yakoob on 24/7/2013 at 04:33
Also, a point I guess I didn't stress hard enough is, when I said:
Quote:
“Sometimes people with slightly different skillsets but similar gaming-taste want to have as much fun as you. Is that so wrong?”
the "slightly" is kind of important, as I recognize genres exist for their specific audiences.
If someone cant use the mouse, has slow response time, and doesn't pay attention to detail, they probably shouldn't be playing fast pace shooters in first place. But if all their skills are up to par but maybe they just happen to be color-blind, then changing the clothes patterns on top of color-coding the teams isn't dumbing down, it's improving accessibility.
Or to roll back to Bioshock - if I enjoy learning about the story, admiring the enviornment, and am competent shooter, but don't have the patience to look through hundreds of identical item stashes to see which ones are usable, I think I still fall well within the genre's target demographic. It would be a different case if I completely failed at shooting or hated narrative in games.
WingedKagouti on 24/7/2013 at 11:39
Quote Posted by Yakoob
And that is the very crux which I argue, for I HATED morrowind's and was happy to see Skyrim's version of a journal (even tho it was imperfect as well)
Yes the former was more "realistic" journal, but it was a massive clusterfuck of a wiki novel that made it impossible to find the info you actually needed without spending half an hour re-reading tens of pages and hopelessly clicking on key terms.
Skyrim's on the other hand, actually helped keep things organized. I do completely agree the notes were too sparse, however, and could have used more detail. But the base format, imho, was far superior to Morrowind's.
I'm not sure if it's one of the patches or one of the expansions that added it, but with the right update you can view the entries specific to a single quest in Morrowind. That helps a lot when trying to figure out what you should/want to do next.
Queue on 24/7/2013 at 13:35
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Uhh... yes. Nobody said or implied that it wasn't.
What I meant was that - especially with reviewers - there seems to be some weird notion of gamer snobbery that tries to say it's not okay, that a game shouldn't be linear and is substandard or a hunk of shit if it is. There's many times that I want to play a linear game that takes me from point A to point B without having to stray from an objective to explore, because the game is fun.
... that the game is not "dumbed down".
catbarf on 24/7/2013 at 14:18
Quote Posted by Queue
What I meant was that - especially with reviewers - there seems to be some weird notion of gamer snobbery that tries to say it's not okay, that a game shouldn't be linear and is substandard or a hunk of shit if it is. There's many times that I want to play a linear game that takes me from point A to point B without having to stray from an objective to explore, because the game is fun.
... that the game is not "dumbed down".
What Melan was saying is that the constant visual cues in Valve's games telling you where to go kill any sense of exploration there might be in the game. ZB was pointing out that the games are meant to be linear, and you're not intended to explore, so complaining that exploration is downplayed in Half-Life is like complaining that combat is downplayed in Amnesia. It's not a matter of dumbing down, it's about consistent design choices.
Yakoob on 24/7/2013 at 17:14
Quote Posted by Queue
What I meant was that - especially with reviewers - there seems to be some weird notion of gamer snobbery that tries to say it's not okay, that a game shouldn't be linear and is substandard or a hunk of shit if it is. There's many times that I want to play a linear game that takes me from point A to point B without having to stray from an objective to explore, because the game is fun.
... that the game is not "dumbed down".
Excellent point, and to add to that - people want to be lied to. People want to be "razzle-dazzled." But they never want to find out they got duped.
It's why magicians never reveal how they do their tricks. As soon as they do, their act loses their appeal, and people feel cheated, even if they knew from the get-go it's all a sham.
(game equivalent: people want to have a smooth and enjoyable experience, they want the clues to keep them moving forward instead of getting stuck. But if you make them too obvious or "gamey" they get upset that they are being "hand-held" or treated as dumb.
that's why Valve's design works, because you never notice those tricks 90% of the time.)
TTK12G3 on 24/7/2013 at 22:05
Quote Posted by dethtoll
I don't know. If there was ever a game series that was overcomplex, it's Elder Scrolls. This "swipe swipe swipe +1 to onanism" business is one of those systems that really need to be taken out back and shot, and I eagerly await the day Bethesda finally changes it to something that isn't stupid, outdated bullshit. (The outcry from neckbeards will be amazing, and their tears will be delicious.) Morrowind's business of "you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you do 1hp damage you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed you missed" is rage-inducing and while Oblivion has many flaws, improving the actual combat portion of the game is not one of them.
I keep seeing this, and I can't help but wonder if my version of Morrowind was enchanted or something.
There is a bit of grind involved with the pre-oblivion titles, but I would hardly call anything in the ES series "complex".
Chade on 24/7/2013 at 22:21
He's not complaining about complexity, though. He's complaining about the grind, and the randomness of the grind too.
gunsmoke on 24/7/2013 at 22:54
You guys can say the old 'lol gunny is a dipshit anyway', whatever. I like having the OPTION to have gameplay helpers. I also like the option to disable individual features of the helpers.
In Deus Ex 3, for example, I find it nearly impossible to see the little tiny findeables. DX1 wasn't a problem. I could see them fine, and so I loved poking around for them. But in 3, I simply can't fucking see them. So, I enable the object highlight. I found the game so maddening without it, I would have quit and never finished one of the greatest games this gen. I don't, however, like the GIANT MULTIPLE QUEST --->'S. Jesus, having 4-5 of those shits on the screen is obnoxious.
Usually, I start the games that utilize those systems with everything enabled. As I progress and get the hang of the game and whatnot, I reassess the usefulness of each one and disable any that intrude more than they help.
As for dumbing down in general, I would have RAGED at this 10 years ago. It offended me as a somewhat cerebral gamer that wanted deep, immersive games with non-intrusive gameplay elements. Games that made me forget I was actually playing a game.
Now, I am 38 years old. I have a kid. I have a full-time, exhausting career that I have to 'bring home with me' and work at home as well (when it should be my free time). Seriously, I was there once, but now, I want to just get through my games as painlessly as possible. My game time is extremely erratic and limited. I want to get the most out of my shorter sessions. Your 'dumbing down' stuff usually helps make the game more suited for my play schedule by allowing me to get more done in that time.
For example, Fallout 3 is tough for me now. Such an involved game that asks you to search every, single inch of the game, listen closely to hours of voice acting, read quite a bit of the readables, plan a build, etc... I play an hour and I felt like I got nothing done. However, when I played Tomb Raider, DX 3, Hitman 5, and FarCry3 recently, they had that new-school, streamlined/dumbed down thing going on that you guys hate. THey made the games much more satistfying for me, but the 25 year old is spitting in my face for typing that. Just an old man with little time that wants to be able to still play games.
TTK12G3 on 25/7/2013 at 04:22
Quote Posted by gunsmoke
Now, I am 38 years old. I have a kid. I have a full-time, exhausting career that I have to 'bring home with me' and work at home as well (when it should be my free time). Seriously, I was there once, but now, I want to just get through my games as painlessly as possible. My game time is extremely erratic and limited. I want to get the most out of my shorter sessions. Your 'dumbing down' stuff usually helps make the game more suited for my play schedule by allowing me to get more done in that time.
Dude, you are the exact type of person that the original Doom appealed to.
june gloom on 25/7/2013 at 06:49
If you meant that to come off as really elitist, well, good job.
