DavidMcMurdo on 19/5/2017 at 19:15
Hey Everyone,
I'm still working on my campaign and it's going great, I just have a few unrelated questions that I couldn't find the answer to, but that I think could be answered fairly easily by those in the know.
1: Having read up on the various methods of creating stairs, I elected to use the method that involves creating several rectangular brushes beside one another and simply adjusting their heights to form stairs. They work fine for me as the player, and enemy guards are fine going down them, however I noticed that when they run up them, they seem to sink almost to their knees in the stairs, though they still ultimately make it to the top. I've played the Thief trilogy for countless hours, but I can't say that I've ever paid that much attention to how the guards look while running up stairs. Is this a problem in the way I've made the stairs or is it a quirk of the engine? It's not a major issue of course, it's just not ideal.
2: I figured out how to make a sleeping guard, but not how to change his posture, so my sleeping guard sleeps flat on his face with his sword outstretched. How do I change his position?
3: In one of my maps I put a pagan civilian in a prison and added a property to him that says "Flee: If Aware of AI/Player: TRUE". However, he doesn't flee and tries to engage me as though he had a weapon to do so. I can't figure out what I'm missing here.
4: Is there a way to select everything in a map when editing? Or a way to click and drag and select things?
5: This is more of an opinion question, but I always felt that you should never be allowed to knock anyone out on Expert difficulty in the Thief games, because if you're allowed to knock people out the maps become too easy. My intention was to have it that on Normal difficulty you're not allowed to kill anyone. On Hard you're not allowed to kill anyone or knock anyone out. And on Expert you're not allowed to kill anyone, knock anyone out, or even be seen. This makes a lot of sense to me personally, but I was wondering how you guys would feel about it.
LarryG on 19/5/2017 at 20:57
1. Don't. make the individual steps higher than .75
2. Look at M-SittingSleeper
3. You could make him Good or Neutral instead of Team n
4. Area brush what you want to select
5. People implement those restrictions, or similar restrictions, in their missions all the time.
DavidMcMurdo on 19/5/2017 at 21:07
Quote Posted by LarryG
1. Don't. make the individual steps higher than .75
2. Look at M-SittingSleeper
3. You could make him Good or Neutral instead of Team n
4. Area brush what you want to select
5. People implement those restrictions, or similar restrictions, in their missions all the time.
Excellent, thanks! I managed to fix my guard and the pagan prisoner. I'm not sure what you mean with number 1. I shouldn't make each step any more than .75 higher than the last?
LarryG on 20/5/2017 at 00:11
Each step has a height and a depth. No matter if you carve steps with airbrushes of build them with solid. The height of each step should be no more than .75 and the step should be no less than 1.0 deep.
Yandros on 20/5/2017 at 00:35
2. There is also M-NewSleeper which has them sleeping on their back.
3. Making him Good will make other normal (Team BadX) AI attack him. Neutral will make everyone ignore him and still make him ignore the player.
4. Besides area brushes, the simple controls are to hold Shift to drag a brush or object, and also you can hold Shift and click other brushes to build a multibrush. That can then be Shift-dragged to move as a group, and also can be duplicated with Insert.
5. Larry is correct, but be very aware that your planned restrictions on Expert are harsher than most FMs. Few missions enforce no KOs on Expert - your worry about it making the mission too easy is a bit misplaced IMO. Think of it this way: if you can't KO anyone, then the mission will be too hard for some players who will just quit; on the other hand, players who want the challenge will just impose their own restrictions to boost difficulty. Same goes for your required ghosting objective, we hear all the time about players complaining about forced ghosting. I've used it in some of my missions, but usually only in certain areas, and in a context that makes sense within the story line. Just a blanket no KO/forced ghosting rule which is only there to make the mission very difficult with no basis in story will just frustrate and turn off a lot of players. If you do decide to use required ghosting, also be aware that implementing it is very difficulty to get foolproof due to the general flakiness of the AI behavior in Dark. In recent year I've more or less eliminated such behavior and left it for the ghosting community to play that way on their own if they so choose.
tl;dr It's better to give the player more rather than less freedom unless story dictates otherwise.
Tannar on 20/5/2017 at 00:42
Quote Posted by DavidMcMurdo
5: This is more of an opinion question, but I always felt that you should never be allowed to knock anyone out on Expert difficulty in the Thief games, because if you're allowed to knock people out the maps become too easy. My intention was to have it that on Normal difficulty you're not allowed to kill anyone. On Hard you're not allowed to kill anyone or knock anyone out. And on Expert you're not allowed to kill anyone, knock anyone out, or even be seen. This makes a lot of sense to me personally, but I was wondering how you guys would feel about it.
Quote Posted by LarryG
5. People implement those restrictions, or similar restrictions, in their missions all the time.
What Larry says is true. However, I'm not sure that's the best gauge of whether or not to do it. Yes, people do it all the time. But most players hate it all the time as well. Players hate forced ghosting, period. Many authors ignore this and force them to ghost anyway. It's just my opinion, but to me that's a surefire way to get people to not enjoy your mission, or to not even bother playing it. It's bad enough to force them to ghost on Expert, but you are forcing them to ghost on Hard as well. I think a more reasonable scenario from the players perspective would be that on Normal you can do whatever you want. On Hard, no killing. And on Expert, no killing and no knockouts. That still forces them to ghost if they want to play expert, but at least they don't have to stick to Normal to avoid that restriction.
For myself, I'll never force a player to ghost an entire mission, and I'm a ghoster. I love ghosting. But it's quite clear that those people who like it will do it anyway without being forced to, and those who don't like it will not appreciate you making them do it.
I'll add two caveats. First, there have been a few rare missions which have had forced ghosting that most people had no real trouble with. Something about the design of it made it less tedious or difficult, or perhaps there was no logical way to not ghost given the circumstances of the mission. I don't know. I think that's a different discussion. Second, there are certainly times when it makes sense, and most players wouldn't object, as long as it's only done in, say, one section of a mission. Here is one example: let's say that one of the mission's goals is to get into the police station and plant some evidence. If you knock people out in there, they will know something is amiss and may question the evidence you leave behind. So in order to ensure that nothing goes wrong, you need to not be seen or heard, and you can't knock anyone out. So, you're forcing the player to ghost that one building. But if they are not forced to ghost the rest of the mission, then they will still feel that they are free to play as they like, for the most part, and are more likely to take the one ghosting section in stride.
The best argument for this approach, to me, is that in this scenario there is a logical reason for needing to avoid knocking anyone out in that building. So the need to ghost arises naturally from the circumstances in that case. Making people ghost an entire mission just because it would be too easy if they don't, is, in my opinion, a poor reason to do it. It's arbitrary, and will feel too much like an unnecessary restriction from the player's point of view. I think missions can be designed in such as way as to provide a challenge for all players, even if they go through and knock everyone out. There are numerous ways to make this possible.
Again, this is just my opinion, and other authors will have their own points of view, no doubt. I just suggest that you give this some considered thought before deciding.
EDIT: Yandros posted while I was writing, lol.
DavidMcMurdo on 20/5/2017 at 01:01
Thanks for that feedback, guys. It's very helpful. I think I'll just go for no kills and no knock-outs on Expert then. It seems that the Thief Objective Wizard doesn't allow for a ghosting requirement anyway (in the sense that if you're seen you fail the mission). I read a tutorial on how to implement a ghosting requirement, but it seemed complicated and it didn't mention how to restrict it to a particular difficulty level. I guess I'll just keep it simple for now. Besides, I guess screwing up and having to run and hide can be fun in itself.
Actually, couldn't I have it where not knocking anyone out and never being seen were optional objectives? That way they're not enforced, but if a player achieves them then they're still acknowledged.
I can't get these stairs working right at all. The enemies sink into them no matter what I do. Ah well. I can live with it.
Yandros on 20/5/2017 at 01:58
That's just the joy of working in an older engine, AI do janky things like that all the time. Player won't be put off by it, they're all used to it.
@Tannar: Down low... too slow!
LarryG on 20/5/2017 at 02:17
I wasn't saying whether or not it was a good idea to implement a no KO or full ghosting requirement on Expert. Although DavidMcMurdo said it was an "opinion" question, I took it as more as a question about whether or not folk have done this in the past. I would recommend that DavidMcMurdo read fan comments on missions and judge for himself, and not just about this topic but for all they have to say about their likes and dislikes. As I recall, there are even some fan surveys that were done and posted.
Tannar on 20/5/2017 at 02:47
Yes indeed, I think that's good advice.
@Yandros: The wheel turns...
