Phatose on 14/5/2010 at 13:47
Edit: Ack, didn't notice you said you already did that one.
Aerothorn on 14/5/2010 at 15:12
Dreamfall was originally on the short-list, and was cut only because of the (pretty much) total lack of control the player has over the happenings. I think it's a fabulous script, I'm just not sure if it's a great example of gamic narrative. Though, yes, I'm totally making assumptions about the value of interactivity (this will definitely be addressed in my paper). If was doing a more straightforward "literary analysis" project then Dreamfall would be near the top of the list, because oh my god is there so much to write about there. But is Dreamfall
historically important?
And yeah, you guys highlighted the exact reason I picked the MGS games (in addition to the previously mentioned cinematic reason). I could do them as sort of a twofer, or give them two short sections, or something. On one hand I feel like I have tons of time for this project, and on the other I know most Div III's struggle to complete 130 pages, so we'll see. I also found MGS4 pretty fascinating (in its ability to tie together 90,000 narrative threads if nothing else) but, again, not sure if it's quite distinctive enough to fit in this project, particularly at the end of it. MGS3 is good times but (possibly because of it being the "second" PS2 game) pushes the envelope less than the other MGS games did in their time.
Quote Posted by Tonamel
This is true, but you don't
have any typical adventure games in your list, so if you plan to include them in the discussion this is probably the best one.
Doesn't The Secret of Monkey Island count? I'm more inclined to use that (or something close to it) simply for chronological reasons. The graphic adventure is really coming off the text adventure and has its heydey from late eighties to mid-to-late 90s. The Longest Journey is considered by some folks to be the last "great" adventure game, at least until the recent resurgence of the genre. If I'm doing a history it might be rather disingenuous to introduce the genre at that point in time. Then again, we're starting to see the problems with the structure of this project - that I'm doing a history that is not through, by design.
In case anyone is wondering what the fuck I'm thinking, the answer is that academia in general and Hampshire College academia in general does not really like people writing books for final projects. They want me to do some incredibly in-depth, academic-journal-style piece of abstract analysis on a narrow subject. I've had to fight just to make it as broad as it is, and I think doing a true survey of game narratives would probably be impossible in this setting.
Angel Dust on 14/5/2010 at 23:20
Both the Ice-Pick Lodge games, Pathologic and The Void do some interesting things. The former does the whole 4th-wall breaking thing as well by having characters occasionally bypass your avatar and talk directly to you, the player. However the most interesting thing about both of them, from a narrative stand-point, is how they exploit the blind trust that players have in what NPC's tell them. The player is deliberately misled and outright lied to by seemingly trustworthy characters. There is none of the obvious delineation of good/evil, truth/lies here, everyone has an agenda and you have to actively figure out who you can trust.
Kane & Lynch might be an interesting one too. Ostensibly it looks like your usual lurid crime drama, complete with 'bad-ass' anti heroes but it's something much different. There is no attempt to 'soften' the two protagonists ala Nico from GTA IV, they are both shown as two irredeemable socio-paths who aren't going anywhere but down. Even the 'save my daughter' aspect isn't shown as a noble quest, a last shot at redemption, but is instead used to show another facet of Kane's selfish and self-destructive personality. It was a huge risk for IO Interactive to take the story in this direction and naturally many players found it quite repellent (not me, I loved it!) but I think raises some interesting questions about what the viewer can accept now they are an active participant rather than a passive observer ala film.
Aerothorn on 15/5/2010 at 16:36
I think my colorblindness would get in the way of me playing The Void, and Kane & Lynch is probably too late in the chronology to really fit in properly. Pathologic I will definitely look at - was it every properly patched up?
Enchantermon on 15/5/2010 at 16:56
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
Doesn't The Secret of Monkey Island count?
Yes, its an adventure game.
Aerothorn on 23/5/2010 at 19:13
So, a more narrow question:
I'm starting to finalize the list, and while I'm still figuring out how many to tackle, I've decided it doesn't make sense to do both Fallout and Torment - they occupy the same space a little bit too much (i.e. I'm only going to do one Black Isle RPG). I may end up doing neither: but if you had to do one, which would it be? Fallout is earlier and probably more influential, as well as being more non-linear and atmospheric: but Torment is, well, Torment: a massive game-as-interactive-novel, plus I can cover the D&D influences so important to gaming.
Tonamel on 23/5/2010 at 20:59
I'd probably go with Fallout. I think the slowly-discovering-the-real-plot mechanic it uses is more applicable to a paper about interactive storytelling than Torment's constantly-asking-the-player-philosophical-questions one.
Aerothorn on 23/5/2010 at 21:35
Yeah, that's what I was leaning toward. Torment is very interesting, but functions, in many ways, as a massively complex choose-your-own-adventure story, and I'm covering a permutation of that with Heavy Rain. It's more notable for its (sometimes) subversion of D&D and binary morality systems, but that's not really enough to justify the time another play-through would require. Thanks!
Pardoner on 23/5/2010 at 22:04
Torment is an investigation of player motive and narrative power itself. Fallout is concise and elegant, but very simple.
The first is involved in making explicit the reasons for gaming itself, how they might be humanizing, and what the player desires from role play in order to re-invent gaming. There's a very conscious dialogue between player and narrative, (as linear as it may seem sometimes) and the game is designed to bring this in to focus and examine it. It's the closest gaming gets to a Milton, a Shelley, or a Joyce.
Fallout is more of an essay. It takes a conceit, and executes it perfectly, with great intelligence and precision. But it's just a conceit. And it can't muster the claim to narrative strength that Torment can, because it's not interested in narrative in the same way. Fallout is remembered largely for player choice, and the supreme flexibility of the game itself, not 'slowly-discovering-the plot'. Look at the discussions of Fallout on forums. Most of them are about pickpocket dynamiting, or being turned into a thin red paste by a follower's SMG.
Pick Torment. It will be challenging, but assuming you don't find a game that's 'constantly-asking-the-player-philosophical-questions' a threat to your intelligence, it will probably result in a much richer discussion.
Edit: Uh, nevermind.
