Dafydd on 25/10/2003 at 19:23

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[theImmortalThief]

Thanks, TIF, I'll give it a shot. Uh, literally!

Dafydd

Dafydd on 26/10/2003 at 04:29

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[theImmortalThief]

All right, I found it: I had to go into the room where the Keeper's body was laid out.

All in all, I really liked this mission... but there is a consistent -- not problem so much as choice you made that bothered me. Nearly all the mission was ghostable, except for two instances, plus one of the objectives.

(Edited Note: this FM is actually ghostable, but only by using arcane and bizarre quirks of the Dark engine. See my post below at:

(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=907898#post907898)

...which links to three full write-ups by Peter Smith, Vanguard, and myself.)

Instance one: In order to get Keeper Bouran's key, I had to crawl through a tunnel; but since the tunnel was blocked by a banner, I had to slash it. This busts a ghost; and since it's not a specific objective (it says get the key; it doesn't say "slash the banner"), there is no defense.

instance two: On the trek through the maze to the room where the Book of Earth is kept, at one point I had to pass a spider that was just about as big as the corridor he was in. There was an unfrobbable mushroom lighting it. I couldn't pass him without him seeing me and alerting -- a ghost bust -- so out of desperation, I killed it. I don't know; maybe somebody better at ghosting could have gotten past (I tried shooting a moss arrow and jumping over the spider onto the moss, but he noticed me flying over his head and attacked). But it seemed unghostable to me.

Also, there were several instances, for example, right at the very end, where I couldn't get to a place I had to without either alerting a guard -- or else nudging a guard. Of course I chose the latter each time... but while that's allowed, I get the impression that it's sort of frowned upon.

And then, there is the objective that requires killing someone. That's technically allowable, since it's a specific objective; but it still doesn't quite feel like Thief to me. Particularly the way you have to do it: in this version, I think the rafters are too close to the ceiling to jump onto from a rope arrow... so I had to jump right in front of the target and play Conan.

I can certainly understand that most people don't like playing ghost; but I always find it a delight when a mission allows players to complete all the objectives while still ghosting, if they want to do so.

As it was, I ghosted everything except those two instances I mentioned: no other second alerts or kills, no other damage given to property or AIs, and no damage taken except in the aforementioned brawl. No KOs, no backstabs. 1866 out of 2191 loot, 3/3 secrets.

Aside from the ghost business, which is just a matter of taste, I found this FM creative, atmospheric, very playable, and several elements were very nostalgic ;) , such as the Keeper compound, which of course reminded me of Equilibrium (one of my all-time favorites).

A great FM -- but in your next one, could you make it a little more ghost-friendly, please?

Thanks,

Dafydd

JACKofTrades on 26/10/2003 at 19:02

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I did exactly the same thing! Well, almost :cheeky: It didn't occur to me to try to BJ him directly because usually you can't BJ an AI once they're alerted. So, I just got on the balcony, flash bombed him and then whacked him. I was hoping to just drop him through the hole in the floor to finish him off (at least it would be little more thief-like that way) but alas, it didn't work.

Excellent mission. I had a lot of fun with this one! :thumb:

I read through this thread after completing the mission and I have a question:

[SPOILER]getting into the sewer - the only way I found was the secret on top of the weapons dealer. After reading this thread I'm led to believe there's another way in? If so, I couldn't find it. Please enlighten me.[/SPOILER]

Thanks!

Dafydd on 26/10/2003 at 19:55

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[Folks]

...which y'all can read here:

(http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=179555#post179555)

I withdraw my claim that it's un-ghostable... but it's ghostable only by the most bizarre object behavior, something that would never be discovered except by two freak accidents:

1) that if you drop the "Keeper's notes" books, rather than fall, they levitate... and you can mantle onto them like floating platforms. Peter used two of them to climb up beside the water column to get the key, rather than slashing a banner;

2) that you can nudge the spider down the corridor, right up to a corner... and then if you squeeze hard enough, she will "squirt" abruptly left down the ell, and once in a blue moon -- you need this -- will spontaneously squirt a second time around the next corner left, getting out of your hair.

So yes, technically, this is a ghost... but it's a ghost only the likes of Deadman or Peter Smith could ever possibly carry out; and it's a ghost that depends upon some very weird properties of the Dark engine that, as far as I'm concerned, are not any more natural than banner transmigration, which has been disallowed on grounds that it just exploits engine oddities and isn't really anything a human could conceivably do.

Now, if there were some indication in the game that dropping those books would give you a platform you could stand on, so that there was a fair chance of discovering it, then I would give you the banner thing. You'd still have the spider problem: nudging is one thing, but nobody else has ever before managed to get an AI to "squirt" like a watermelon seed down a corridor. And a bank shot on top of that!

For us normal humans :eww: I wouldn't call this mission ghostable... but it could be made ghostable by (a) a line in one of the Keeper's Notes books about how the author had to reach a book on a high shelf, and he discovered that dropping this book gave him a platform he could stand on... and how did Old Keeper So-and-So manage to make his book do that? And (b), by turning down the spider's hearing so that you can jump over her, if you moss the landing zone beind her.

As I said, a great mission except for those things... and if you made the lighting on the platform where Bouros stands a little lower, so that with preliminary mossing you can jump from the rope and land undetected, giving you a chance (with great sneakiness) to ghost around behind him for a backstab or a KO, followed by hacking the comatose body, it would be an added inducement to ghost -- though of course even doing it the way I did doesn't bust the ghost, because it's a named objective.

Dafydd

Dafydd on 27/10/2003 at 01:57

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[tIT]



All right; where do I send it? I tried the link at (http://www.thief-thecircle.com) (which mails to [email]thiefnews@ttlg.com[/email], oddly enough), but it got bounced back to me as "host unknown."

So I tried [email]thiefnews@thief-thecircle.com[/email], but that didn't work either (non-local host... not a gateway).

Dafydd