Renzatic on 2/2/2011 at 23:43
The way I take it, an experience in this context would be any identical scenario, and how these two identical people would respond to it. Like two different timelines split from the same moment, and you're able to observe both at once.
Of course, now I have to wonder that if these two people on these different timelines experienced the same external stimuli, would they ever change? Something as mundane as the wind blowing a newspaper in front of Person A, but not Person B, would influence a change in that guy's internal monologue, and thus change things vastly farther down the line. But if they were exactly the same in all regards, would we ever see a difference? Would one guy ever think of something the other didn't, despite the entire construct of their external realities being identical?
Kolya on 2/2/2011 at 23:50
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
But I digress, I'm being needlessly awkward with you. I think you've missed the point of the question which is...
SE, you are just incapable of accepting that my take on this highly vague question is as good as yours. Do you happen to work as some kind of authority figure? A teacher maybe?
SubJeff on 3/2/2011 at 00:10
I'm sorry Koyla, but your take isn't as good because that is the type of question being asked. I'll give you another example - the God Infinite Power Paradox.
If you believe that (a) God has infinite power would he/she (call it he for now, eh?) be able to create a being of equal power?
If the answer is yes then he cannot have infinite power (and if you say no he also doesn't) because he will not be able to destroy this other being of infinite power because, well it's power is infinite and so it will be indestructible won't it? And the discussion goes from there. Highschool stuff.
But there is always one "smartarse" (usually someone from the Christian Union in my experience) who pipes up with "But God wouldn't
want to do that because it serves no purpose."
This person has missed the point. We don't care about what God would want to do or not, we only wish to discuss the infinite power paradox. See?
Another one you could try is (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem) the trolley problem/the fat man. If you start asking questions like "But who are the people, and why is the trolley out of control?" then know that you done messed up.
demagogue on 3/2/2011 at 00:14
To step back, I don't know if this question is the best way to get to some of the most interesting philosophical issues going on with consciousness & philosophy of mind these days.
At any rate, while we're at it, some other questions that are also fruitful and interesting...
- If there really were a Star Trek transporter that disassembled your atoms in one place and reassembled other atoms in another place in exactly the same arrangement, and you "arrive" at the other place and carry on with your business without missing a beat; what makes the person coming out really still *you*? What if the person entering the teleporter weren't disassembled; are there now 2 of you?
- Is it possible to imagine two people who have red & green reversed (everything red for one is green for the other & vice versa, but they use the same terms indistinguishably)? And does that possibility even mean anything (what is the color apart from the thing you see when you mean "red")? If you re-wired a person's retina so red=green signals & vice versa, but took them to a parallel world (like the Truman Show) where everything red was green & vice versa, would "red" & "green" mean different things than what we mean by them or not?
- The next step. Could you imagine a human brain firing normally, with its owner "seeing" & talking about red as if conscious of it, but actually have no consciousness at all? It's all dark, just neurons firing & muscles contracting. (A philosophical zombie). If not, then can you point to the part of the brain where the consciousness has be (where the "red" has to be red)? If so, then what is consciousness at all? How could some neurons firing have it and not others?
- One estimate says the brain has 100 billion neurons. You could imagine a future planet with 100 billion people. Imagine they all have flags that they signal other people with the same logical sequence as neurons, and propagate signals just like a human brain (if slower, but the same inputs, processing, & outputs). And then imagine the system gets an incoming signal of seeing an apple and a question about what color it is, and then they all signal each other with the same dynamics as a brain to finally (after some time) output instructions to voice muscles to successfully report "It's red". Is there ever any point in this flag-signaling where consciousness of "red" has happened, and if not, then what makes neuron signals different from flag signals?
Renzatic on 3/2/2011 at 00:19
I thought the infinite Power Paradox asked if God could create a being more powerful than Himself. If He is, then he isn't all powerful, because He has created something more powerful than himself, and vice versa if He's not.
My one problem with that particular paradox is that it assumes infinity is a quantifiable amount. For God to make something more powerful than himself, he has to make More All beyond the All that's already there. If he does that, then He already has an understanding of All, and the More All he's creating. By creating this being, He is elevating himself up to the level of this superior being by the act of creation. It's a paradox no matter how you look at it.
SubJeff on 3/2/2011 at 00:23
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Would one guy ever think of something the other didn't, despite the entire construct of their external realities being identical?
This is the question isn't it. I'd like to think yes, there would be something that made a difference but the scientist in me says no - you'd be essentially the same person which for some reason terrifies me.
demagogue - there was a Star Trek episode about exactly that. Riker teleported off some planet 6 years ago but a copy of him (who knows who the original is?) was left on the planet. They meet 6 years later and the one left behind was alone all that time. Interesting idea, handled in the usually hammy ST way - the one left behind is still in love with so and so and is now outranked by himself and blah blah.
The red-green question. I think it would alter alot. I don't like green because I like nature and jungles and stuff, it's just a more soothing colour than red. If you flip them around I think jungles and fields and whatnot become less serene.
Kolya on 3/2/2011 at 01:08
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I'm sorry Koyla, but your take isn't as good because that is the type of question being asked. I'll give you another example - the God Infinite Power Paradox.
Oh I didn't know it was a "type of question" and that this implies it only allows for one interpretation. Must be really cosy in that little box of yours.
By the way, infinite power != indestructibility. Think suicide. So long.
EDIT: In your experience with this high school stuff there's always one "smartarse" from the christian union...? You really are a teacher, right?
SubJeff on 3/2/2011 at 01:52
Look at the rest of the thread ffs. You've got it wrong but everyone else is too nice to tell you so. I only told you because you started with a "fuuuuuuuuuu" as if the OP had asked something dumb.
And no, I'm not a school teacher (I just remember that type of highschool philosophy discussion) but itt I've schooled you. You're a slow learner though. Go to the back of the class. :rolleyes:
Kolya on 3/2/2011 at 02:20
What kind of teacher are you then? A professor?
"Look at the thread" is not an argument, you know, it's not like majority makes right, especially when a question is that vague. And nowhere did it say the persons would exist in different times or universes or some such. In fact that is really far from the question and could be cut off by Occam's razor easily.
I'm not your student, but I when I read your desperately condescending posts, I sense your fear. Typical reaction of authority figures who've gotten used to their way of explaining shit a little too much. Completely blinkered.
