Gambit on 15/3/2009 at 01:19
Trickster´s ´past is very mysterious.
We know he is a pagan god. He was powerfull once but then something happened and people didn´t fear his dark age anymore. Probably because of the City´s progress, and the opposition of the hammerites.
So there was a time when Trickster was not the boss. So he was designing his dark project. Was he always in his "Constantine" form when he lost his power? Does that mean that he wandered for years in the City with the body of an old man? Or does he lives at the maw and just popped out of it recently, chosing to assume the "Constantine" figure to lure some greedy thief ?
Or maybe Constantine was a real person, involved in dark magic. Maybe he did something stupid in his rituals and got possessed by the Trickster. Or maybe the Trickster couldn´t change forms, so he killed a healthy old man and used his skin as a disguise, just like Gamall´s powers.
What do ya think my brethen ?
Meisterdieb on 15/3/2009 at 03:46
I believe the prevailing theory is that Constantine was just an avatar for the Trickster, just some way fro him to manifest in this world. He needed the body to have a better, more tangible influence in the city.
I don't think the Trickster had lost any power, in that he lost his god-like status or abilities. More likely (IIRC mentioned in some cutscenes by Constantine himself) the reason for his dark project was simply to "remind" the world that he was still there, still a power to be reckoned with.
If I'm not mistaken, there also is the mentioning of the conflict or war between the Builder and the Trickster and how the pagan god was driven away. The question here is how literal we may take that, or if it just means that as the people became more "civilised" and technological they forgot about their "wild" origins.
It may have been both, as well; the war simply being the Hammerites/city dwellers fighting against the pagans and mosters and driving them from their lands.
Illuminatus on 15/3/2009 at 08:42
Yeah the back-story is pretty interesting... one way of looking at things is that after the cataclysm that destroyed the Lost City, the remaining communities of people lived in the darkness and mystery that the Trickster talked about, sort of like the Dark Ages after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Then at some point technology starts to pick up again and the Builder and his Hammerites emerge to rebuild society, representing order and progress. So that would have been the struggle between the two sides that ended with the Trickster (natural world) being sort of driven farther and farther away from the growing City, and the Builder becoming this legendary Christ-like founder.
Fast-forward to the present day, and it's clear the Trickster has lost a huge amount of power, since the world is becoming more and more urbanized. It's likely that he just used a human form to disguise himself upon his return (remember, Constantine is a new face in The City). The thing that seems to restore him to glory is The Eye, which could be related to its power over life and death (it was The Eye after all that zombified the entire Old Quarter). Either way, he's technically not an evil presence, more of an avatar of nature, chaos, etc.
Zillameth on 15/3/2009 at 10:57
Quote Posted by Illuminatus
Yeah the back-story is pretty interesting... one way of looking at things is that after the cataclysm that destroyed the Lost City, the remaining communities of people lived in the darkness and mystery that the Trickster talked about, sort of like the Dark Ages after the collapse of the Roman Empire.
Sorry for nitpicking, but you probably want to say "sort of like the Dark Ages after the collapse of the Mycenaean Culture". That's where the term "dark age" originated from. There was no discontinuity between the Roman empire and Medium Ages. There was just so much change, particularly in the northwest of Europe, that most history courses for students fail to give a clear picture (not to mention that the main power of that time, the "eastern" Roman Empire, was Greek in terms of high culture, Orthodox in terms of religion, and mostly Slavic in terms of general population, and that's just not correct politically).
Illuminatus on 15/3/2009 at 11:26
well now if we're going to flex our real-world history biceps here, the post-Mycenaean era was the Greek Dark Age; the term "Dark Ages" itself is more generally used for the Early Middle Ages, after the fall of Rome. What you're talking about is the part of Europe that didn't fall into "darkness": the Second Rome, Byzantium, Constantinople (founded, ironically, by Constantine of all people, ha). Although to be fair, no one from the West considered those guys "Romans" (even though they themselves did), and they were definitely Greek, not Slavic in population (although their legacy certainly ended up shaping the entire Slavic world ;) ).
uhh yeah so the point is, a FM in a Constantinople-type setting is long overdue (especially since the Catholic/Protestant churches already have their Thief equivalent of Hammerites/Mechanists).
Petike the Taffer on 15/3/2009 at 13:02
Well, here's my little theory :
The Trickster isn't actually a god, he's more of a god like-being. I think he was once a member of a an ancient race of satyr-like humanoids and was some sort of great sorcerer, both respected and feared among the other members of his civilization. Most of the other animal-humanoid races became serfs and underdogs of these pseudosatyrs, except the Kurshok and their human allies and disciples, known later as the Precursors. The future Trickster persuaded his fellow pseudosatyrs to punish the renegades for their stubbornness and the boldness of doing things their own way. A devastating war started, and although the Kurshoks and Precursors managed to gain the upper hand and slay most of the adversaries, the Trickster started preparing revenge. He studied and developed dark magic and gradually grew insane and extremelly power-hungry. He caused the cataclysm that destroyed the once great civilizations. He allowed a handful of Kurshoks to survive and live in the more habitable parts of their sunken cities, but not because of mercy - he just wanted to have the pleasure of watching them rot and slowly degenerate, in order to hummiliate their former glory and pride. Some of the Precursors survived too, forming the predecessors of the City's people. A few philosophers with already monotheistic tendencies created the foundations of the Hammerite religion, that appealed to many disilussioned Karath-Diners, who felt betrayed and abandoned by their older deities. Some Precursors decided that it's no use attempting to antagonise the Trickster. They yielded themselves to him and started worshipping him as their beloved and protecting Woodsie Lord. The Trickster tried his best being polite and caring to them, so he could be sure of their support and devotion at any time. Pretty soon, a cold war started between the future Hammers and future Pagans. Some of the aforementioned philosophers and scholars of the Precursors became fed up with the whole situation and founded a self-appointed organisation of mystics and guardians of peace and balance in the world, keeping the tension between Pagans and Hammers at a bearable level. These were the first Keepers.
Whatcha think ? :D
Meisterdieb on 15/3/2009 at 14:12
I can't say I agree with your theory, but at least you put some thought into it.
I'd like to know how you came to think that the Trickster is not a god, just very powerful. Are there some missions or cut-scenes that influenced your thinking?
2 points:
What exactly would be the difference between a god and a god-like being?
We don't really know what constitutes a god or a god-like being in the Thiefverse... The difference would likely be small or one or two items because if you assume something is "like a god" than it's very close to be one.
I'm sure we are agreed that we're not using the colloquial, figuratively version of the phrase ("Wow, Tom, that solo was amazing! You're like the god of guitars!").
Quote:
He caused the cataclysm that destroyed the once great civilizations.
That pretty much sounds like a god's doing to me. Plus, it happened so long ago that if it is the same being, the Trickster would be at least very, very long-living if not immortal (in the not-dying-of-old-age-kind-of-way)
And just so we're on the same level, here's the definition from wiktionary
# A supernatural, typically immortal being with superior powers.
# A deity personifying or in charge of a specific matter.
or Merriam Webster:
2: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship ; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3: a person or thing of supreme value
4: a powerful ruler
Which pretty much makes the Trickster a god.
ManicMan on 15/3/2009 at 18:15
What is a god... simple, it depens. Not all gods are good, not all gods have great power, not all gods are humanoid, not all gods are born, not all gods can live forever... there appears to be nothing all gods have in common.
There is no Doubt the Trickster IS a God. basicly, he is the God of Nature. The Builder is then the God of Civilisation. Civilisation takes over Nature. With Nature fading, the God of Nature is gonna be a little annoyed. Thus he wanted to destroy World of civilisation and bring back the world of Nature. The Builder and his followers aren't very nice at times, neither is the Trickster and his followers.. niether good nor evil.. and really, niether is Garrett, Pawn of the gods In a sense (In the first Garrett fights against the forces of Nature, in the second he fights with the forces of Nature. Noice how in the first he throws off the balance, leading into the second where he more returns the balance... Which is what the keepers want, Keepers of Knowledge, Keepers of Balance).
anyway, what's intresting is the Trickster is more of a god (you could say) then the Builder since the Trickster is still around, the Builder is thought to be 'not on his world' as he was a man with the heart of a ... well, you should know the rest...
Petike the Taffer on 15/3/2009 at 18:58
I'm not argueing, I just wanted to give a little alternate interpretation of the character. :)
ManicMan on 15/3/2009 at 20:01
yeah.. problem is if everyone is forced into thinking the same theorys, it would be a problem
