About the Lost City... - by Bulgarian_Taffer
Bulgarian_Taffer on 11/12/2005 at 02:06
Today we will discuss only the Lost City and Karrath- Din, who was he and what we know about the empire, how long it existed and etc...
Bulgarian_Taffer on 11/12/2005 at 02:19
God, forgive me, but that study in the University... I haven't visited the forum for a week! And I do wonder that I have posted a similar thread before!
But I won't ask the moderator to delete it. Today we will discuss only the Lost City and Karrath- Din, who was he and what we know about the empire, how long it existed and etc...
kamyk on 11/12/2005 at 02:21
Works for me. Besides, like I said the other thread derailed, and is now about the origins of the Trickster for some reason.
Bulgarian_Taffer on 11/12/2005 at 02:32
Yes, I saw that.
I remember two documents when I entered the Lost City in thief 1. One is about the coliseum... so we could think that the Karrath-Din empire is like the Roman empire.
The other one is a Keeper document, the expedition that never returned.
ejsmith on 11/12/2005 at 03:24
There were several documents. At least three Keeper books, and at at three parchments. I could download them or check the DVD, but I'm not motivated enough right now to do so.
I figure Karath-Din was buried 1000+ years ago. It takes about that long before map edges "crumble" in your hands. Wasn't London (hospital-on-the-road) destroyed a couple of times before finally building walls and consequently surviving? I'd imagine that occured around 1000 AD, or so.
jtr7 on 11/12/2005 at 06:00
First, a clarification: Karath-Din is the name of the Lost City. Its last known leader was Va-Toran (right taffers?).
On one hand (ignoring real world level-design issues), in
The Dark Project/Gold, KD seems well preserved and the lava appears to have either stayed flowing smoothly for a long time or has only recently begun to flow. Is this a testament to the engineering skills of the lost city's builders, and/or the strength and longevity of the native rock, and/or has it not been as long as we'd first suppose? Also, Garrett can plainly read the language. I'm thinking it's been less than 500 years since Karath-Din sank. The material the map was drawn on could have been subjected to unforgiving conditions and/or been made of inferior material. If it was a map made at the time of the Precursors it would be very valuable. Since Garrett makes no mention of that and handles it as though it's just a fragile map, it may not be that old, afterall.
What I want to know is how KD wasn't buried
within the substantial rock and dirt that is the foundation of The City above, as opposed to having huge pockets of air and the rockbed as a ceiling? Was it originally built inside a network of great caverns? Did the network of caverns AND the already subterranean city sink slowly together, perhaps sealing off the populace (without a renewable food source, if any survived)?
There are almost zero remains of the Precursors themsleves. If KD was built inside a large hill that sank slowly enough to preserve the majority of the caverns and the city within, many of the inhabitants could have escaped. Any survivors of the disaster could have disposed of the dead by casting the corpses into the lava (if lava flowed there at that time). Did the people actually mummify their dead leaders or did they just remove the organs and store them in the canopic jars? Maybe the Keepers did all the looting and got rid of all the remains they found. Maybe the Necrotic Mutox (or "rust-gas" or whatever the Precursors called it) wiped almost everbody out. But then how did some organic material remain behind? Maybe everybody was gathered at the arena when the Mutox was released. Burricks don't seem carnivorous, but they probably like minerals, so they could have eaten all the bones before the fireballs took over the territory. Maybe another group of people came through KD before the Keepers, like the Trickster and his minions. Maybe there was a power struggle that caused the elimination of all who were considered enemies of the power-hungry. The Trickster was probably pissed off at the destruction of so many organisms and pissed off at the creation of the rust-gas, and so, through magic, sank Karath-Din in order to contain and destroy the weapon and those who would use it. He or his minions could have looted the city, disposed of any bodies and rust-dust, placed guardians there, and forgot all about Karath-Din. He never mentions it. The ancient pictograms, like the one above Constantine's mantle, show only the Trickster's history with the Hammers. Viktoria doesn't seem to know much about the rust-gas, unless Karras's methods and terminology confused her.
How did the Keepers find it? What were they looking for to begin with? The Mages of the Order of the Hand found it, too. Did the Keepers reveal the existence or merely the location of KD to the Mages, perhaps inadvertantly? Is it that easy to find? Was it found through magic and/or writings left by people who lived nearby at the time of the disaster, or their descendants? Are the original Keepers descendants of the Precursors (or people knowledgable in Precursor history), sworn to never allow a repeat of the doom that befell their founding fathers?
Okay, I'm done.:p
Solabusca on 11/12/2005 at 10:21
... if Karath-Din has only been buried for 500 years, how in the name of Hades did the City happen to come about?
I'd place it at more than 4000 years, frankly (closer to 5000-10000, perhaps). That allows the City to develop after KD is 'forgotten'. Think about it - how many people know about KD? Very, very few know that the City is built upon it. The Keepers, the Mages, and then the Mechanists. The overall society is known - people collect Precursor artefacts from far-flung areas - but it seems to be a pretty damn big secret that KD rests beneath the city.
When raiding the City, Garret refers to himself as an 'archeologist'. 500 years in the kind of world that the Thief games are set in is a blip. Don't forget you also have to account for the dissapearance of the civilization that built it, for crying out loud!
Garret being able to read the languages probably ties into Glyphs. He is trained to read them, if you recall. As to how the Mages find their way in... research. I'm fair certain that the ancient documents we find are parchment, not paper. Longer lifespan.
Don't be dragging the Trickster into this, either. I'm still of the mind that the Woodsie Lord wasn't a power at the time.
...hmmm. Vulcanism caused by impact with a planetary body... that could be an interesting way to go... must go ponder... must go ponder...
[EDIT: I think it's fair to add that while the disaster at KD may have been entirely natural in origin, it seems too appropriate to ascribe an eldritch force behind it's fate - perhaps Va-Toran, in his greed, was trying to bind and control something far more powerful - or perhaps whatever forces the Precursors had harnessed managed to become uncontrolled, wild. There's a great Bruce Sterling short story, written as a pastiche of a cold-war nuclear spy novel and a Mythos tale, wherein rather than using nuclear weapons, the Americans create a means to open portals between worlds and unleash some horrific, shapeless thing upon their enemies - rather than having to deal with radiation, they have to deal with the psychic and sorcerous contaminents that remain... mutating children, burying cities. Very much like the Torque in Perdido Street Station.]
.j.
ionia23 on 14/12/2005 at 22:22
*I shouldn't do this*
The city was destroyed by the use of The Eye (pure speculation), offending You Know Who. To a degree, likewise with the Kurshok, and the hammers of the Old Quarter.
Remember, no one knows how old the city is, how many times it has been rebuilt, etc.
So your guess of "thousands of years" (insert the evil voice of the Cybernetic Ghost Of Christmas Past From The Future here) is more than likely correct.
Stan_The_Thief on 24/4/2009 at 04:45
Quote Posted by Solabusca
and then the Mechanists.
How do you think the Mechanists found out about The Lost City, and what prompted them (Karras in particular) to organize that huge expedition there and take the whole place over?
jtr7 on 24/4/2009 at 05:33
First, the easy one: Karras prompted them to take over the whole place when they "uncovered the ancient power used by our Order to benefit all of humankind." Which could mean that Cavador discovered it when he did what he does best: Explored caves and ancient ruins. Cavador was in charge of the Cetus project, the K-D Site, and called the Precursors "Ancestors". He bemoaned Karras's lack of appreciation for the other wonders of Karath-Din, and betrayed him near the end.
The Cetus Amicus was built after Karath-Din was discovered, and with their great pride in efficiency, the Mechanists believed the underwater side entrance to Karath-Din was the easiest way to transport goods and people to and from there. There is a water symbol on the old map that coincides with the Docks on the Mechanist site map.
I've joked about the dropping levels and sucking sound of the draining canal into the Lost City getting someone's attention. If the Keepers found it (and they had a scholar taking notes whom required more information than we ever see to come to the conclusions drawn), the Hand Mages found it (maybe it was their fault!), and it was already well looted (and without respect, too!) when Garrett had his first look at it, the Mechanists could have found a way in. Remember how Garrett left Karath-Din the second time, through Site 9, and we were told "Since you've been to the Lost City before, you know there's another route out. Use it to leave"? We don't know where that route leads to, but it provides yet another way in. It's not too far away from the entrance we know, and it's actually a continuity error, since Garrett couldn't leave that way the first time. :D
