About the Lost City...

jtr7 on 26/4/2009 at 23:02

Okay, Stan, I'll break it down sentence-by-sentence for you--in a Private Message, and not because it's private but this thread isn't going to derail just yet--unless you want to start a new thread.:sly:

I'll just say here, that the Keeper Enforcer CONCEPT was excellent and had fantastic potential, but the implementation was a colossal let-down.

As far as that unreachable section of Karath-Din, the closest we ever get is the waterfall entrance with the spiders at the top and the pool down below, but it remains inaccessible in both games (Gray area), as do the docks. Looking at the automap files, it's never highlighted. In TMA, we get to see exposed faces of buildings we don't see in TDP/Gold. I suppose the Mechanists didn't get around to excavating it, but for some reason the waterfall entrance is completely missing, and there's nary a hint that there was something there before. The tombs are blocked off as well.

Inline Image:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Karath-Din_DromEd.gif

Stath MIA: That was one of those things that had just occurred to me as I was writing the post, and it doesn't surprise me, as the Thief stories have a leitmotif structure woven in, with themes revisited time and again, and overlapping, with each faction unaware of how similar they are, even as they are diametrically opposed, or neutral.

I forgot this comment by Garrett about the Lost City: "How can the Keepers keep this place a secret?"

Stan_The_Thief on 27/4/2009 at 02:05

Quote Posted by Stath MIA

Now, BACK ON TOPIC.

I did put this back on topic before you posted this. Pay attention.

Quote Posted by Stath MIA

"I don't like it so it isn't true"

Well, that's quite the opposite of how I had put it, no? I've shown clear, non-arbitrary proof in support for my arguments. (And I did like the Kurshok level. I just don't think it has much to do with this thread.)

Quote Posted by Stath MIA

canon

What's with this word all over the place? Someone must have looked up the definition of "apocrypha". Just to get the whole thing out of the way quickly, -- I'm not particularly bashing T3 here. Nor am I saying that the new fiction doesn't apply.

I'm saying that the new fiction, even though it does ultimately add to the part of Thief story we're discussing, applies to this story only retroactively and therefore isn't original to it. I am more interested in that original rendering of the story, that which was in the mind of the writers/designers of The Lost City level at the outset of the Series. I hope everyone will agree that at the time The Lost City v1.0 was being designed and woven into TDP plot, nobody had the foggiest idea of any "Kurshok"...

Quote Posted by Stath MIA

Jtr7- I like the parallel you drew between the Kurshok and Keepers. It seems quite the apt metaphor.

No, um, it was a metaphor for the decline of Keeper knowledge, which isn't by itself a connection or a parallel between them. The connection was made by Jtr7 through the artifacts that came in contact with either faction and then were connected amongst themselves and/or changed hands...

Why do people just keep going at this "hey, great job on Kurshok-Keepers connection!!" thing without having any idea of what exactly was said? I welcome difference of opinion because that's what makes it interesting, but it's quite another thing when people gather into a high-school peanut gallery and parrot stuff out just because they want to disagree.

Stan_The_Thief on 27/4/2009 at 02:20

Oh, and these quotes --

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

"Come on, an entirely different team of people was writing the story for TDS!"

"Terri Brosius was my co-lead - I was more gameplay and she was more story."

-- don't contradict each other, because Terri Brosius wasn't writing the story for the first two games.

jtr7 on 27/4/2009 at 02:53

:(

Dude, you're coming across as growing irrational with something like desperation. You are not aware of the facts, including what the spirit of this discussion was, and that's really why you aren't going with the flow, or challenging us creatively with perspective and facts for the most part. We are now putting on our ugly pedant's hats. I understand it's insulting, but this thread has just about been killed, and now you're just getting spiteful. Private message?

Stan_The_Thief on 27/4/2009 at 05:02

Quote Posted by jtr7

that's really why you aren't ... challenging us creatively

I didn't realise I was supposed to challenge you at all. :)

And what was the "spirit of the discussion" that I'm not aware of? Kindly enlighten me. For now all I know is that I revived the thread, asked questions and commented on answers, saying whether I agreed or disagreed. I don't see why you're unhappy.

The thread is not dead. Desist from nonsense and keep to the subject of the Lost City.

Herr_Garrett on 27/4/2009 at 05:47

Quote Posted by Stan_The_Thief

By the Nine Divine. Listen, kid. The Lost City and the Kurshok Citadel ARE RELATED AND NOT JUST IN OUR IMAGINATION. There is continuity and connexion between them. Got it?
Seesh.

jtr7 on 27/4/2009 at 05:51

Easy Herr_Garrett, heh.

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

@jtr7: Come on, I was very moderate by my standards. :p

Yes, you were, but you still said it, and I'm still not sure what you meant, and I'm not irritated with it, just trying to get to the root of your persistence. :D

Quote Posted by Stan_The_Thief

I didn't realise I was supposed to challenge you at all. :)

Uh...is this semantics? I'm not talking rules or obligations, but putting a label on what we were already doing before it got personal. Why did you not only revive the thread, but continue to post, then, if not to add to the fun by making suppositions or proposals or providing missing facts that challenge our previous thinking and enhance the way we look at the information? Again, just labels for what we were doing.

Quote Posted by Stan_The_Thief

And what was the "spirit of the discussion" that I'm not aware of? Kindly enlighten me. For now all I know is that I revived the thread, asked questions and commented on answers, saying whether I agreed or disagreed. I don't see why you're unhappy.

It was not unhappiness, it was stunned disbelief, and that was before things got weird. The spirit of the thread was fun speculation, not deriding people. What started as a [playful-yet-?]sorely uninformed dig at the T3 team was so far from factual that it had to be addressed, to address that nonsense, and also in case someone new to Thief read and believed it. It sent this thread off into bubble-bursting territory, followed by nudges and assertions to correct you, then you picking Stath's post apart and showing ignorance of what he said or why. I knew what he meant, and that's why I think you are being irrational and spiteful, even now. You can't argue that you weren't injecting personal nonsense that also had nothing to do with the Lost City you now attempt to steer ME back to, or that the positive momentum of the thread is lost--even if temporarily. It remains to be seen if this thread can go back to being about the games, again. We're all approaching troll territory and hopefully when we get there it will all be just water under the bridge. :sly:

Quote Posted by Stan_The_Thief

The thread is not dead. Desist from nonsense and keep to the subject of the Lost City.

I can't believe you're telling ME this. :laff:

What are your next thoughts on the Lost City, then? I take it you have something further to add that we can tackle? You realise that it is a challenge to dig up an answer not off the top of my head?:angel:

Look, man...I'm really grateful you revived this thread, and it's really been a blast for me. Thanks, truly, and I look forward to more speculation on the the canon dots we love to connect with our crazy fancruft! :thumb:

Stath MIA on 28/4/2009 at 04:47

So, I've been thinking about why the T1/G entrance to the Lost City was missing in T2, I believe that the Mechanists likely blew the the tunnels to prevent unwanted intruders, the entrance was far to wet and difficult for the Mechs to use (especially if they were hauling bots and equipment) but it was just right for Keepers and a certain unnamed thief whom Karras was already suspicious of and who he may or may not have guessed had been there before. Alternatively, the removal of the Talisman of Fire may have disturbed the environment and pissed off the the elementals enough to collapse a large portion of the area, thus explaining the palace's (I think that was the building) conspicuous absence, or maybe, in the same line of thought, the elementals are sentient and decided that they didn't like Garrett stealing their relic and therefore they sealed off the palace and waterfall entrance so they could live/burn out the rest of their existence in peace.

jtr7 on 28/4/2009 at 04:57

Hmmm. Yes, close the easy entrance and leave only a small and easily-guarded one, and a huge, underground, underwater, secret one for hauling people and cargo, where there would be no interruptions in transit form one secret base to another, few to notice, and no piracy. A top secret operation. They could've used the excuse of a sinkhole collapse, the water eroding a bedrock of shale.:thumb:

Solabusca on 28/4/2009 at 06:10

Quote Posted by jtr7

I can't believe you're telling ME this. :laff:

I go off to play on my own for a bit, and jtr7 has to be the one to put up with this stuff?

Go me!

.j.