Blastfrog on 25/8/2014 at 06:34
I have some random mod ideas and wanted input on their concepts.
1. Aside from "blasphemy!", what would your opinion of these mods be if they were to come into existence? Would they be fun to play as alternate takes on the games or would they be a waste of everybody's time?
2. The second two are certainly easy to do, but how easy is the first to implement? How doable might this is be in NewDark? If it is considered doable, I'd like tips on where/how to start with creating behavior mods. Don't I have to modify and recompile the source of the DARK.GAM file or something? I'm not asking others more experienced than me to make it for me, but am rather looking for advice from such people.
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Action Thief (Reimplementing the E3 1996 T1 gameplay mechanics to both LGS Thief games in the context of their final builds)
Must (movement):
*Permanent speed potion player speed (T1, if player speed is different in T2)
*T2 style air speed cap (at speed mentioned above). This would be to avoid bunnyhopping from feeling even crazier, as well as preventing the player from jumping too far to get places he wasn't meant to be in.
*All speed potions are replaced with health potions - more useful in action setting since you're more likely to take damage, and the speed potion is already redundant here.
*Half volume player footsteps. This would be to avoid the faster speed making you more easy to detect so running should be proportionally the same as if you were running at normal speed.
Must (combat):
*When blackjack is out, it is always fully drawn. Clicking the attack button will swing it down, and holding it will automatically do so as quickly as possible (see Doom's fists).
*When bow is out, it is always fully drawn. No zoom, and player movement is uninhibited. Clicking will release the shot, Garret will draw the bow as soon as possible after firing a shot.
*The bow should draw twice as quickly than it normally does.
*Sword behaves no differently except that it does not inhibit player movement.
*Don't kill/knock out/harm anybody mission objectives are always disabled regardless of difficulty selected.
Nice to have but not absolutely necessary (movement):
*No deceleration threshold (slow all the way to 0 without jumping to it after a certain low speed is reached). Basically have it feel closer to Doom's movement than Quake's.
*No (or reduced) view bobbing (would get sickening and annoying given the fast speed).
Cosmetic:
*The first person bow model is realigned to be rotated 90 degrees clockwise, moved to bottom of screen and horizontally centered.
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Thief: The Metal Project
*Colorize the lights in all Thief 1 levels like that of Thief 2. Probably would look best alongside the optional T2 textures for T1 mod that comes with one of the fan patches.
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Thief 2: The Dark Age
*Make all lights in Thief 2 levels greyscale like that of Thief 1. Might be nice to create a separate mod to put T1 textures into T2 as an inverse parallel to the above (and maybe create T1 style variations of redone T1 textures that had additional variations in T2 not found in T1 to fill in any gaps that may create a clash in visual styles, if any such additional variations exist).
Lotos on 25/8/2014 at 07:31
While I always appreciate everyone, who tries to make the games even more nice to play, I'm not sure if your ideas are really necessary.
I hope you don't take what I'm writing the wrong way, but especially the combat ideas are something, I personally (I'm really talking about myself here) don't like.
I think I'll never understand why some Thief players feel the need to fight or kill everyone in a mission etc.
To me, it's all about stealth - sneaking around and relieving people of their belongings. And I'm not talking about ghosting here. Blackjacking or gasing someone is ok, especially when they are in the way, but my imagination of a thief is not someone going around killing or fighting others. He only does that, when really, really necessary. He is not an Assassin... and even an Assassin (at least a good one) only kills his target - quietly - and noone else.
That's the reason why I don't like modifikations for the combat, because I don't think Garrett should be turned into "a fighter". Even if Garrett is somehow discovered, then I prefer for him to run (and hide^^)... and normally that's enough and works just fine. :)
User 205 on 25/8/2014 at 08:03
In my opinion your combat ideas would better work in a FM than in the main games. (Like a "Dark Camelot" campgain, wonder why no one ever did this)
Blastfrog on 27/8/2014 at 05:42
I really do want to know where to start with making gameplay behavior mods like this. Do I use DromED, or another tool? If DromED, where do I go to edit the actor/behavior code in it? I want to produce this mod but am clueless where to begin.
Quote Posted by Lotos
I think I'll never understand why some Thief players feel the need to fight or kill everyone in a mission etc.
Quote Posted by User 205
In my opinion your combat ideas would better work in a FM than in the main games. (Like a "Dark Camelot" campgain, wonder why no one ever did this)
Well, they're not quite my ideas as much as they are my interpretation of the gameplay mechanics of early prototype footage of Thief 1* and how it could be implemented as a mod for the final product. At least in the case of Thief 1, I don't think you'd really need a specialized combat-oriented mission set, it's already there as they built most of the levels we see in T1 for 2 years under that style of gameplay, only changing to pure stealth at the last minute (hence the plethora of criticisms that the game feels too "combaty" despite its mechanics). Maybe it wouldn't work quite as well in Thief 2, but its gameplay isn't
that different from Thief 1's, just a slightly more refined level design with the pure stealth mechanics from the start rather than being forced into it when it wasn't designed for it as is the case in Thief 1.
The idea behind "Action Thief" (or maybe I could call it "Burglar" or "Robber") would be to restore T1's level design to how it was meant to be played as an alternate way of experiencing the game (let's face it, T1 was unpolished due to the drastic last-minute changes), and as a critical/theoretical experiment to see how T2's stealth-oriented level design would fare with these early gameplay mechanics.
Videos of the original FPS-like gameplay here:
(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkJ4vDrRytY)
(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-lLdhB1KuI)
Hell, it might even make Thieves' Guild more tolerable (despite being made with the pure stealth mechanics from the very start of its production).
*I'm fully aware that the 1996 version of The Dark Project probably had bunny hopping, but that's one creative liberty I'd take, to have a Thief 2 style air cap (especially given that the fast speed would already be somewhat like bunny hopping at normal speed).
Lotos on 27/8/2014 at 10:21
I hope you don't take my criticism personally. :)
Of course everyone enjoys different things in games so it really is a matter of taste... and you can't argue about taste. ;) So if you prefer the game like you describe, that's totally ok.
But to be honest with you: If you don't have any experience in programming and don't even know where to find the related files you need, than my advise for you is to first start with something easy, start to gain knowledge, then step by step, increase the difficulty level of things you code until you have enough knowledge... the necessary knowledge that is required for coding, before you actually start working on something complex. Otherwise you will always have to ask others for help and they will give you solutions how to code something but you won't even be able to understand what that particular line(s) do(es) they gave you. To be able to code something you need at least some basic knowledge, which you obviously don't have. Otherwise you would have at least a vague idea, where to look for the files and what kind of tools you need.
And to get the knowledge you need, you have to start reading about coding. If one where to try to explain to you all you need to know here in the forums, that would be way too complex and it would take way too much time.
If you're stuck with something I'm sure nobody has a problem to help you out there, but to actually "teach" you is something totally different. That is something you have to do yourself. There are more than enough sources on the internet you can use to learn how to program. And like I said, if you have questions along the way, I'm sure many here will gladly answer you these and help you. :)
I know it might be tempting or even seem great to have an idea and think:"I'll program this." But like many other things, this is not something learnt over night. It takes time, a lot of reading, many errors ;) and patience until one has enough knowledge and understanding. It also helps to look at existing codes to understand how exactly they are written, which command does what etc.
But like I said, it would be way too complex to try to explain it all here now.
Again, no offense intended. :)
Blastfrog on 27/8/2014 at 11:53
I am perfectly capable of coding, I just want to know what the starting point is when dealing with the Dark engine is all (gameplay behavior, I have little interest in making FMs). I just simply don't know my way around the Dark engine as I've never worked with it before. I just need a pointer - a specific and highly regarded tutorial/guide or something.
I suppose I'll take this to the editing subforum, no sense in going on about it here any longer.
Quote Posted by Lotos
I hope you don't take my criticism personally. :)
...
If you don't have any experience in programming and don't even know where to find the related files you need, than my advise for you is to first start with something easy, start to gain knowledge, then step by step, increase the difficulty level of things you code until you have enough knowledge... the necessary knowledge that is required for coding, before you actually start working on something complex.gave you. To be able to code something you need at least some basic knowledge, which you obviously don't have.
...
But like I said, it would be way too complex to try to explain it all here now.
Again, no offense intended. :)
I don't take any offense to minor disagreements about game design, though I do feel that you're being (probably unintentionally) patronizing and insulting about the coding. I've done game coding before. I've coded more intelligent, reactive AI for a Doom mod, I've compiled modified versions of the Chocolate Doom and Eternity engines with Mario-like jumping physics and horizontal mid-air control, worked in 68k assembly code for Genesis games among plenty of other things.
I'm not a particularly great coder, but I am by no means unfamiliar with coding either -- I can find my way around once I know what I'm doing. There are other gameplay mods out there like the "hard mode" mod that does stuff like making the AI characters more vigilant, and other mods that affect other areas of gameplay behavior. I'm not mad at you or anything, not at all, but I did want to clarify that my skills are not at the level that you assume they are.
*in fact, I love the stealth gameplay, I just want to make a fun alternative for the sake of exploring the original gameplay mechanics in practice
Kolya on 27/8/2014 at 13:59
Once I snorted paprika powder. I don't quite remember if it was an accident or some misled quest for kicks due to a lack of actual drugs or money, only the searing pain in my nose that would not stop, until I tumbled over my brightest idea ever: I chopped up a fresh paprika and stuffed two pieces of it in my nose which had a miraculous cooling effect. Fighting fire with fire!
