5tephe on 28/2/2006 at 03:46

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Believe it or not, I am just playing through Sabotage at Soulfourge for the first time.

I was a huge Thief TDP fan, and bought it brand new when it cam out in the shops.But I didn't have a decent computer when T2 came out, and just never got back around to it.

So, over recent months (I don't get a lot of time to play) I have slowly worked my way through Metal Age, for the first time, and am halfway through Soulfourge now. I think I have flipped 4 of the big levers. Yeah. Just trying to sneak past the round room full of Servants with the flareing light.

I am a bit of a writer, and have worked in the film industry as an assistant director, and my wife is a writer for television. So for me, it is and always has been about the story. And frankly, TMA just doesn't stack up.

Most of your comments have been really accurate (I've read the spoilers, figuring that very few of them would ruin anything now that I am so close), but what it comes down to is this:

Jeopardy.

In order to make a story compelling, you need to have a) Characters that the audience cares about, and b) put them in Jeopardy, or danger. And the classic rule is, the more danger (believably) you put them in, the better. Screenwriters live by the rule that "things have got to get as bad as they can POSSIBLY get, before they can get better."

Now, the TTLG guys are good, and they already have point a) covered. Point b) though, is where they fell down in TMA.

Compare TDP with TMA:
One of the posters (tpwdct) said it earlier- Constantine pulls out your frikin' eye and leaves you essentially naked and dead in his mansion- hell you WOULD have been dead if it hadn't been for those stuck-up bloody Keepers, that you walked out on all those years ago. Which makes it worse, if anything because now you are embarrased, and naked and one-eyed.

When it came to the climax, you really FELT Garret's resentment, to almost EVERY ONE of the smug or useless bastards that had put him in this position. The Keepers for their oh-too-wise hands off policy, the Hammers for getting in the way of everyone BUT Constantine, and Constantine for playing you like a fiddle and leaving you maimed. You wanted to do the mission, but resented the fact that you had to, in order to save the world. Why cuoldn't it just have been you and that big Woodsie Jerk, manno a manno?

Now, TMA:
In the cutscene before Sabotage, Garret is so un-invested that he walks away. He is still in a position where he can. That's just not enough jeopardy.

Especially when they could have taken SO MUCH MORE from him.

Those Servants are the key.
Garret chould have been captured and turned into a servant.

Then the would have had to give you a mission (inside his mind, perhaps?) where he regains at least partial control of the body. But having metal feet, he CAN'T SNEAK AROUND any more.
Ouch.
Of course, he can pass off as a Servant, so that is in his favour, but still, he's screwed.
Then, give us the last mission- perhaps Viktoria (thinking Garret gone) attacks Soulforge, and passes over her mission to him when she realises what has happenned.

Yeah, nice. That'd work MUCH better.

One way or another though, they should have HURT him more.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

Fig455 on 2/3/2006 at 01:40

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I don't get it ...... what exactly did Tumbleweed mean by ? Do you guys agree w/him? Hmmm. I rather like(d) it.

Random_Taffer on 22/3/2006 at 01:58

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I rather liked the first mission. It showed Garrett's soft side and the first line is hilarious.

"I've always associated feelings with getting caught. They both get in the way of me and my money."

I really liked the first time seen ship though in the second mission...

Random_Taffer on 30/3/2006 at 16:00

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Lol that's common human nature isn't it?

Ever notice that anytime something is more powerful or different that people instantly think it's a "Demon" or "Monster" o something?

I think it's kinda funny. Not poking fun here I would have thought the same thing. :)

Lord Dalar on 17/5/2006 at 14:52

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I was Just reading this discussion, about plots and stories, and often with my good old friend with whom I discovered this game several Years ago i discuss such topic in front of a good and big mug of beer.

I agree TDP is better than the MA, not only because of the missions, but also for the atmpsphere, TDP was more Gothic, dark, creepy, unnatural, innovative, the MA Showed up with a fantastic Demo, thievery on rooftops, what a Deal! exploring the city from another point of view, robbing into houses, choosing where to break in, not only a simple castle to rob, no you've got the whole city at your feet. That gives you a glimpse of what a master thief is and then all those little things like the necromancer tower, the guards who argue abouth their lady, those small "cutscenes" inside the game, it's what one loves, because it gives live to the level.

Well, I was waiting for such a game, and as I installed thief 2 I got pretty annoied by the first mission, every time one does something there appers a message, ok, it's a Tutorial, but I want to choose if to do it or not. I can't kill anyone, ok, but it's the first mission, the first time one plays he wants to make an idea of the game, one tries to explore a little bit of the level simply running down the corridors to play it all later in the right mood.

Shipping and recieving is just a big level with doors and codes (that sounded original, but after a while it went frustrating) running from a part of the level to the other to find that gem, or that ring hidden right under that particular crate, it's a level that you finish knocking out everyone and then taking your time to loot everything, and that's not the right mood, that's not the style I was useed in TDP.

the cutscenes where fabulous as usual, and the story, as far as I'm concerned is interesting, this "protestants" against the main religion who conquer the grade of prime religion through gifts and promises, but it's only told, we don't really see it, we don't really breathe the air of the mechanist as we did with the hammers, I was very solidal with the hammers, but I didn't see in the game the conflict of the two factions.

The pagan territory looked like a star wars film and had lost a lot of the misterious atmosphere of TDP, and most of all TMA is VICTORIAN STYLE I really hate that, the houses, the towers, it looks like in a few years the city has made a jump in time of at least 300! I found it marvellous finding myself again in the lost city (and I hated that level in TDP, but I recognize that it was for a personal taste, the level was very wel designed) but there are little other references to the world we discovered in TDP, no same quarters, no same streets, nothing, the city is big and we always see something new, but there is no integration or evolution with what once was...

I didn't want to open another topic just to say this, and oh, Deadly shadows is another story, could someone please tell me WHo REALLY killed Truart? becausa I liked the interpretation in the T2X, but I found nothing in the original game...