Ostriig on 25/6/2009 at 12:42
Quote Posted by 5tephe
Or bushes and trees that make noise as you push through their branches.
Stalker does that. And I have to admit I like it, despite its potential for "oh shit" moments. Or maybe because of it...
mothra on 25/6/2009 at 14:05
that was the only thing clear sky's swamp had for it going. it's grass was very high, the swamp a little hilly and during night the obstructions and sound did make for a very creepy setting. couple this with some animals around and vola: tension ! at least for me.
for me a robust sound/awareness system for Thief4 would be enough. most games have buggy AI that break the game, hitting the right spot between "realistic" and "buggy enough" for rare moments of glory won't be easy.
"simple" stealth (only LOS) would be a gamekiller, at least in thief4.
which brings me back again to
scaling and meaningful difficulty settings...........
a thing almost no games do right.
- tourist mode: simple stealth (only LOS + shadows), low damage, less criteria for objectives
- easy mode: simple stealth + easy sound, more damage, higher awareness, more criteria for objectives
- experienced mode: normal stealth (addition of sound, enviromental clues like stomped grass), more damage, higher awareness, more criteria for objectives, enemies have ADVANCED AI (changing paths dynamically, compensating for already killed/stunned characters or plain noticing them missing and getting help)
- master thief
enemies will randomize their paths and speed with which they do their rounds additional to above
- geralt mode
ghosting
- custom thief
able to mix and match above preconfigured values for a personal config of each level
Namdrol on 25/6/2009 at 14:39
Quote Posted by mothra
- custom thief
able to mix and match above preconfigured values for a personal config of each level
:thumb:
Stath MIA on 25/6/2009 at 15:19
Quote Posted by ascottk
Actually that's exactly what I was talking about.
Really? I thought you were talking about tampering with floor functions so that they arbitrarily got noisier the farther you get from the wall, an idea I'm not so big on. Oh well, maybe I misunderstood. Is cool. :thumb:
@mothra- Definitely. The more customizable the gameplay is the better, both for the players and for EM. It allows for massive amounts of freedom in deciding just how you want to play. This kind of system allows for us old taffers to be happy while not alienating the more casual gamers who EM will want to pull in.
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/6/2009 at 21:14
I also like the idea. About hidden variables... basically it was just making the middle of wooden floors more noisy than the area close to the walls, right? And I think that's simple enough, even if supporting beams would kind of change the whole thing from the beginning.
In general, I'm all for expanding the stealth thing to more areas which have not been covered yet. Why do squeaking doors never alert guards? Why do old wooden stairs not crack? Why does no guard notice my silhouette in front of the window? It's things like these which always made me wonder for a moment. And I also think there's still room before it hurts gameplay.
ascottk on 25/6/2009 at 21:48
Quote Posted by belboz
probably not easy with any tech, leaves in game environments are usually decals, or overlays.
Once the light gem can react to a different light intensities then sound can behave in a similar way using a gradient decal, volume, or a T4 specific light volume.
Just as long as the devs don't include an spl meter in the gui :erg:
Chade on 25/6/2009 at 22:04
Quote Posted by ascottk
Actually that's exactly what I was talking about.
Technically it could be fairly easy using materials. An alpha invisible texture (invisible to the player) that fades near the walls & the engine adds intensity to the sound according to opacity.
EDIT: Well . . . not easy with existing Thief tech . . .
:confused:
5tephe's idea is not at all what you are suggesting. Who cares if you implement it as a texture? That's a technical detail, not a game design decision.
It's still a mostly hidden variable, it still doesn't add anything new to the game, and it still reduces the level designers flexibility.
Quote Posted by 5tephe
I think a more 'sliding scale' approach to a lot of things like that would mimic reality better, and not confuse players at all.
5tephe, that suggestion is pretty standard one from hard core fans of a game: make it just like before, but deeper.
FWIW, I would definately like something like that in TDM. Hell, personally I'd also like something like that in T4. But, I think, if I was a designer on thief 4, I would tread very carefully when adding more detail to the sound propagation engine. For several reasons:
1) Sound feedback is not exact. You can hear the player get louder, but you hardly have an exact measurement on it. Subtle variations will be hard for the player to pick up.
2) The AI's reaction to garrett's footsteps already depends on analog variables. There are two: distance from player to guard, and time which the guard was exposed to the sound. Even with just one sound volume, the player still has quite a bit to learn, just learning how far and how long he can run around before the AI's get suspicious. And there are still more variables: guard alertness is one.
3) How much attention should the player play to the ground? Floor is basically pretty uninteresting. Will we make this part of the game harder, and then compromise by making some other part of the game easier? Do we want the player to spend more time looking at the ground, and less time looking at walls for shadows? Or less time looking around for guards?
4) A player should be able to predict how much noise a surface will make. This requires practice. We might play through a level two or three times, but most people will only play through once. Any particular surface volume should be deployed regularly so that they can gain some degree of familiarity with it. How often are you going to go through dry leaves? Will the player have a chance to learn how much noise dry leaves make?
That's not to say that dry leaves and bushes can't make noise ... you are right: they should. Just be carefull before saying things like "well, this patch of leaves is more dense then that one ... so it should make a bit more noise ...", or "lets make this part of the carpet threadbare, so the player really has to pay attention to it as he walks over it!".
ascottk on 26/6/2009 at 01:33
Quote Posted by Chade
:confused:
5tephe's idea is not at all what you are suggesting. Who cares if you implement it as a texture? That's a technical detail, not a game design decision.
It's still a mostly hidden variable, it still doesn't add anything new to the game, and it still reduces the level designers flexibility.
It's nice to talk tech as a modder & to have someone actually understand.
Quote:
1) Sound feedback is not exact. You can hear the player get louder, but you hardly have an exact measurement on it. Subtle variations will be hard for the player to pick up.
Incorporate other sounds with the footsteps like the creaking of a floorboard. Maybe visual feedback would make more sense . . . except I would hate to have an spl meter and a lightgem. But from an audio engineer's perspective it would be fun.
Quote:
3) How much attention should the player play to the ground? Floor is basically pretty uninteresting. Will we make this part of the game harder, and then compromise by making some other part of the game easier? Do we want the player to spend more time looking at the ground, and less time looking at walls for shadows? Or less time looking around for guards?
If you were sneaking around in real life you'd pay a lot more attention to the ground. Not necessarily looking at the ground but listening a lot more.
Quote:
4) A player should be able to predict how much noise a surface will make. This requires practice. We might play through a level two or three times, but most people will only play through once. Any particular surface volume should be deployed regularly so that they can gain some degree of familiarity with it. How often are you going to go through dry leaves? Will the player have a chance to learn how much noise dry leaves make?
Replayability.
Quote:
That's not to say that dry leaves and bushes can't make noise ... you are right: they should. Just be carefull before saying things like "well, this patch of leaves is more dense then that one ... so it should make a bit more noise ...", or "lets make this part of the carpet threadbare, so the player really has to pay attention to it as he walks over it!".
That'd be too much detail which would affect playability so I agree.
Beleg Cúthalion on 26/6/2009 at 07:35
Quote Posted by Chade
How much attention should the player play to the ground? Floor is basically pretty uninteresting. Will we make this part of the game harder, and then compromise by making some other part of the game easier?
Already the Keeper Training mission forced you to look at the floor. I wonder how you play Thief with ignoring the material you're walking on. Heck, I guess ascottk never suggested to add something completely confusing to the player. It just uses the own experience of everyone and turns it into gameplay. Like cracking floors, like rustling foliage, like e.g. silhouettes in front of a window or light shaft.
Plus, you never know ho quickly people get used to it just like they got used to looking at the floor and hiding in real shadows.
Petike the Taffer on 26/6/2009 at 14:01
Quote Posted by mothra
that was the only thing clear sky's swamp had for it going. it's grass was very high, the swamp a little hilly and during night the obstructions and sound did make for a very creepy setting. couple this with some animals around and vola: tension ! at least for me.
for me a robust sound/awareness system for Thief4 would be enough. most games have buggy AI that break the game, hitting the right spot between "realistic" and "buggy enough" for rare moments of glory won't be easy.
"simple" stealth (only LOS) would be a gamekiller, at least in thief4.
which brings me back again to
scaling and meaningful difficulty settings...........
a thing almost no games do right.
- tourist mode: simple stealth (only LOS + shadows), low damage, less criteria for objectives
- easy mode: simple stealth + easy sound, more damage, higher awareness, more criteria for objectives
- experienced mode: normal stealth (addition of sound, enviromental clues like stomped grass), more damage, higher awareness, more criteria for objectives, enemies have ADVANCED AI (changing paths dynamically, compensating for already killed/stunned characters or plain noticing them missing and getting help)
- master thief
enemies will randomize their paths and speed with which they do their rounds additional to above
- geralt mode
ghosting
- custom thief
able to mix and match above preconfigured values for a personal config of each level
And this is what I've been saying for a long time, but usualy nobody listens (because of arguments over rope arrows and climbing gloves :tsktsk:)... I wholeheartedly agree... :thumb:
And the customization of difficulty should include the possibility to remove GUIs and HUDs (e.g. during lockpicking) to make the gameplay even more challenging, realistic and immersive.
Honestly, Thief IV should focus mainly on gameplay and difficulty customization, so it could impress both newcomers as well as die-hard taffer fans. ;)
