kamyk on 14/5/2009 at 08:08
Like the hive mind idea for undead, even though I hate forced ghosting.
I like the time idea as well, as long as it doesn't lend itself to missions with a time limit where if you aren't done by x time, mission fails.
infinity on 14/5/2009 at 08:28
There are a lot of really nice ideas in this thead.
Highlights:
Tricky AI- Pretends to have lost interest
Guard Interaction- Reviving Gaurds, complicated routes
Guard Intelligence- Following water trails, realizing missing friends
My ideas:
Have guards suspect everything. I am always annoyed when a guard is on patrol, and is walking nearby another guard out of sight. The AI 'magically' knows that those footsteps are friendly, and yet when I walk in that same spot he comes after me.
Have guards run for help at different times. For example, have the 'dumb guard' run for help maybe after one hit, or maybe even right away whereas 'intelligent guard' might be more likely to stick it out for longer before running for backup.
jay pettitt on 14/5/2009 at 11:11
Quote:
I think it would be great to have an undead AI with "inverted sight". The AI should see in the dark, and be unable to spot Garrett in the light.
I think that's kinda neat... or maybe for a subterranean relative of burricks...
I've noticed, after playing a few games, that AI can be stupid, just as long as they are consistent about it. It's when they are inconsistent that you notice and think they are rubbish and start appealing for reason and fairness to the gaming pixies that live in the sky. I guess it's uncanny valley applied to AI.
Some of the most enjoyable games I've played had truly stupid AI. Project IGI springs to mind. But the AI were undeniably fun to play against. Exploiting their stupidity was fun sometimes too, it became part of the game. Soldiers being reliably oblivious to the guy standing next to them dropping dead seemed somehow perfectly acceptable.
The trouble with clever AI is it increases the likelihood that they'll do something inconsistent. Thi3f AI had some funky moves - commenting about the state of lights after a torch had been doused is fairly smart. But when the AI barks 'who switched off the light' when a candle has been snuffed out it grates. Candles don't switch on and off. Bad AI - no twinkie.
The relatively sophisticated AI in T3 seemed more dumb than the insanely stupid AI in Project IGI. If the AI hadn't bothered to do smart stuff like bark at the environment and risk getting it slightly wrong sometimes, the AI might have seemed a hell of a lot better. I'm more than happy to overlook doors magically opening and closing when an AI wants to pass, but woe betide any AI who will position themselves a suitable distance from a door, reach out an arm, attempt to interact with a door knob and side step the opening door and walk through. Oh boy, how dumb does that look.
In fact I don't think calling them AI is helpful. I don't think intelligence is a desirable quality in game AI. The ambition should be not to break the suspension of disbelief, not try, and fail, to be clever. Perhaps Artificial Opponents would be a better phrase?
Elusive on 14/5/2009 at 12:11
Innovative ways to make AI scary is always a beautiful idea. I'd always like to see something else done with ghosts in thief. IMO a good way to represent ghosts would be to have them materialize and dematerialize. Think like this:
Normally ghosts (fiendly and hostile) are represented only by a thin mist and/or the 'ghost talk' we all fear. This means tha tthe player will be aware that there are ghosts, but not where they are and if they are neutral or hostile towards him/her.
When attacking, a ghost will choose a moment and materialize somewhere near the layer, for example behind him. It may be silent, or with a sudden scream, followed by it attacking. To further infuse paranoia only some ghosts are actually able to harm the player.
How about it? ;)
Dussander on 15/5/2009 at 11:31
To be fair the original games had situations close to tricking Garrett they've stopped looking. Some AI are tweaked so that after they've returned to their patrols after searching for you, if you go anywhere near them they'll know you're there. I had this when I left a body and some guards saw it, searched and stopped all without seeing me.
MrMunkeepants on 19/5/2009 at 21:45
statues - I believe it was in one of Sensut's Dracula missions, there were suits of armor on display all over a castle. I was very wary the first few times, but nothing happened and I forgot they were there. later in the game something wakes them up, and the former furniture tried to kill me!
Taffer36 on 19/5/2009 at 22:05
"Hivemind" and "Inverted Sight" are the two best ideas here, IMO. Especially the inverted sight undead idea. I really love it when games turn things on their head like that on the player and really force you to rethink a gameplay style that you've become accustomed to (kind of like Dead Space I guess, except WITHIN the game this time).
I also think a very cool concept to play with is to be able to assess the type of enemy you're facing. Depending on the situation, there'd be intelligent and well-trained guards, but I think it'd be cool to get players to recognize "Benny", and knowing that when you get him you can get away with a lot more (maybe making enough noise will scare him off?). LGS had the right idea somewhat with the concept of "drunk guards", which is something that the player is able to assess, realize that they can exploit, then you reward the player for having thought about the situation. Same with starting the fight at LoTP by shooting one of the guards.
I was watching Shawshank Redemption the other day, and I saw something that I thought would be really cool. Remember the scene where he waits for the lightning so that he can strike the rock? That would be EXCELLENT in a stealth game. That should be integrated into the gameplay, so that the player can match the sounds they make with their surroundings. A similar mission where you have to do something noisy when the lightning strikes would be cool, but for more common situations you could take steps on metal when a guard sneezes/coughs, or you could even try matching your footsteps to an enemy's (judging with headbob) to walk up behind them unnoticed.
Quote:
I've noticed, after playing a few games, that AI can be stupid, just as long as they are consistent about it. It's when they are inconsistent that you notice and think they are rubbish and start appealing for reason and fairness to the gaming pixies that live in the sky. I guess it's uncanny valley applied to AI.
Stupid AI are great in certain cases, actually. Halo played around with this in a great way by having AI assume the player is hiding where they last saw them and they would continue to fire on that spot, allowing the player to sneak around and flank. As long as the player feels like they've tricked the enemy and NOT the programmer, it's all good and immersion is kept intact.
jermi on 20/5/2009 at 16:53
Unpredictable AI. What next, unpredictable physics?
Bakerman on 20/5/2009 at 16:58
jermi - Humans are unpredictable; rocks are not. [I assume you were being serious ;P]
Taffer36 - I like the idea of being able to judge guards' weaknesses more. It'd be nice to have things like guards who will sleep on the watch (and guards who will lean against stuff and just *look* like they're dozing off, but their eyes are wide open...), drunk guards (though it could be done a bit more subtly...), and guards with personality. They shouldn't just stand around in the same pose the entire time, they should sit, lean on things, walk around a bit, etc.
Then you'd know the *really* tough taffers because they'd be the ones who do stand rock still :P.
Iceblade on 20/5/2009 at 19:13
Well, that stoicism (is that the right use of the word?) is okay for earlier games...but you expect a little more reality and variation in guards nowadays. It would get really dull standing in the same spot and patrolling the exact same route all night. Also it is highly unbelievable for any person to so consistently do this. Humans aren't machines and repetitive motion will dull the mind, so it would be could to at least occasionally see a guard here and there sit down for a few minutes every half-hour or so...maybe even in a bad location for the player. Actually, I have to wonder why random patrols weren't used more often...they at least provide a little more realism and unpredictability to guards.
