Chade on 20/5/2009 at 21:43
You are assuming that the devs wanted their guards to be realistic and unpredictable ...
They actually wanted guards to be stupid and predictable, because they only exist to enable the player to sneak around them.
Albert on 20/5/2009 at 22:50
Hmm, the suggestions people have made on how the AI in thief should work is eerily similar to how the AI works in a game that is largely unrelated to thief other than having stealth and a first-person perspective: No one lives forever 1 and 2 (often shortened to nolf).
(
http://www.5min.com/Video/NOLF-2-Gameplay-Part-02--Cate-Archer-Must-Die---Call-it-a-hunch-88553087) Nolf 2
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJBZll6_jeg) Stealth in Nolf
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4BDoUx33SU) Hilarious cutscene (couldn't hold the urge to share it with you guys)
Of course, the stealth AI is quite primitive in nolf 1 & 2, but primarily 1. The enemies actually respawn in 2 (not 1, if I remember), so stealth is actually of the essence due to the short supply of ammo the player usually has. Also, my favorite part, one of the weapons in nolf 2 is the banana.
If your expecting an experience similar to thief, just keep in mind that if you don't kill them, the AIs will actually wake up eventually, and for infinity: AIs will actually wake up other AIs (in nolf 2), so your idea is not new.
Oh, and I just learned of this, but nolfs engine is actually the same one used in F.E.A.R., but of course it is a highly enhanced engine.
But otherwise, if you combined thief with nolf, you'd have a really crazy game...
So, what u guys think? a little off topic, but nolf
is a stealth game, and the similarities to it and thief aren't too far off.
hikikomori-san on 20/5/2009 at 22:55
Quote Posted by Chade
You are assuming that the devs
wanted their guards to be realistic and unpredictable ...
They actually wanted guards to be stupid and predictable, because they only exist to enable the player to sneak around them.
That's one of the most important points to consider regarding AI. Any increased smartness in the AI's behavior will most likely result in increased difficulty and frustration, especially since Gerrett's capabilities are very limited. Most of the time all you could do is wait for a guard to look away so you can blackjack him or bypass him. That, or use a noise arrow to send him away. If you want better AI, you should give Garrett more capabilities to cope.
So far the only suggestion for how this might be done is Herr_Garrett's suggestion to allow Garrett to talk his way out of things (which I personally would simply hate). The truth is that the AI in the previous games is stupid indeed, to an awkward degree even. Often I had found myself snapping and just eliminating everybody with fire and gas arrows. Simply put, there really is no versatility in the ways a player could navigate the environment undetected. Remember the area in front of the haunted ship in TDS?
With Garrett's current capabilities, what can be done to enhance the AI is very limited. I had actually thought a lot about what can be done in that regard, and only one answer made sense to me: increased agility. I know what you're thinking... you're thinking it's blasphemy to turn thief into a fast game like assassin's creed, and I completely agree there. What I'm talking about is slow agility. Think of Mirror's Edge, but in stealth mode (slow and noiseless), without the running (except when you've been made). It would be a very thin line between implementing it just right, and blowing it completely.
I know you probably stopped taking me seriously the moment I said "Mirror's Edge"! Really, that's not what I meant. All I'm talking about is the ability to hang and shimmy across ledges, slowly climb up between the two walls of a narrow corridor, and quickly sprint from behind one column to the next while the guard is looking away. Stealth-mode mirror's edge. Don't dismiss it before you swirl it around in your head for a couple of minuites.
Tail on 20/5/2009 at 23:21
One sense that isn't used is smell.
Maybe the beasts should be able to smell Garrett in close proximity, and maybe even have the sense enhanced when alerted. You can almost bump into a human, but you'd have to keep your distance from beasts.
It would mean that if you alert some of the beasts, you wouldn't be able to just keep still in the shadows and hope. You'd have to stay hidden, and also try to keep moving until out of their range.
Edit:
Unfortunately, this would eliminate blackjacking/backstabbing them...maybe you could, but you have to be quick!
So, a delay from smelling to becoming alerted?
Stath MIA on 20/5/2009 at 23:38
Quote Posted by jermi
Unpredictable AI. What next, unpredictable physics?
YES! Let's allow for a 10% chance of broadheads not arcing, 24% of gravity reversing, and 50% of water being breathable, that'll really keep players on their toes! :joke:
But seriously, I think the AI should be somewhat realistic but not full on human, I wouldn't want to have the guards out thinking me all the time but some realism would be nice. As for smell, that would be an interesting concept but very hard to implement.
Albert on 21/5/2009 at 00:00
These debates are hypnotic for some people... weird. :p
Chade on 21/5/2009 at 00:16
Why would smell be hard to implement? Sounds pretty easy to me. Just check the distance the pathfinder would take to get from the monster to Garrett.
Anyway, I think smell is quite a nice idea, as long as you have the right sound effects and give the player plenty of feedback on what is happening. It couldn't be used as a regular AI thing, becuse it breaks some pretty core aspects of thief (hiding inches from a guard as he patrols past, shadows == safe), but it would be a good way to shake things up in a couple of missions.
Stath MIA on 21/5/2009 at 01:42
Quote Posted by Chade
Why would smell be hard to implement? Sounds pretty easy to me. Just check the distance the pathfinder would take to get from the monster to Garrett.
More like hard to implement
properly. It would be very hard to keep from making it unbalancing for the AI. I think it would make any kind of direct player interaction very irksome, how would one ghost past something that could sense their very presence?
Chade on 21/5/2009 at 01:48
Ah yes, you are quite right. It couldn't be a standard thing. You would need to build maps around the idea that the player must stay a certain distance from the AI.
Peanuckle on 21/5/2009 at 05:01
Quote Posted by jermi
Unpredictable AI. What next, unpredictable physics?
Thief already has unpredictable physics. keyholing, flare elevatoring, and SHAS are all proof of that.
