jermi on 21/5/2009 at 18:06
All mostly predictable, except SHAS, which is a valid example in this discussion. So who wants totally random deaths? Unpredictable AI? Same thing.
hexhunter on 21/5/2009 at 20:22
Long list of ideas to cover here:
- on realistic enemies: It's certainly true that it's difficult to avoid enemies when you can't predict their routes, there are some occasions however when it would be an interesting peak in action. Say the student sneaking to the kitchen to steal alcohol, he's trying to be stealthy so he doesn't turn on lights, however he is no master thief and you could here him coming from miles, giving you time to escape or just move to a corner because he won't be turning on the lights anyway. Difficult to test however.
- on intelligent enemies: I think watch detectives and hammer inspectors might be capable of tracking you, finding evidence, etc. Other similiar characters with this level of intelligence might include pagan hunters, mechanist snipers (seriously) and keeper agents.
On beasts with senses of smell: Ever played MGS4, it worked in that, can't be a common thing though, unless you had to wade through a moat to break into a castle. In MGS4 your radar shows you the direction and strength of the wind, and some enemies will find you if you don't put a building between you and them.
To hikikomori-san: I thought the same thing, and I think both Assassin's and Mirrors Edge are good examples of how Garrett can be more agile, not to much more though, I certainly don't boo and hiss when I hear those names.
To Taffer36: The audio stealth idea is cool, it was actually used in Sniper Elite, you had to wait til a bomb exploded to take a shot to avoid being heard. In Splinter Cell: CT there were petrol generators you could disable to make it darker, but they made noise while turned on so either you leave the lights on and run around, or turn them off and hide in the shadows.
My own ideas:
Gargoyles which prowl the rooftops, gliding between them
Some enemies might be so powerful that they could burst through walls
Statues and armour which seem like they aren't animated but come to life and attack you (not only my idea), but i'm not sure how you'd stop it spoiling the perfect stats people want to get. Maybe you would be warned by hearing AIs or recieving messages, and perhaps you could get a glyph which makes them stand out a bit. The suits of armour could be hammerite knights, waiting for you to arrive.
I think some undead could be headless, unlike other AI who stay to the light, they could only find their way around by tactile sense, and would have to hold on to walls and objects. Then their heads could be mounted on pikes, acting like cameras, screaming out whenever someone passes by. It could be a gameplay issue to have some AI see you in the light and some in the dark in the same room.
I'd like to see some mounted AI, I think great things could be done with necromancers, their creations, and maybe mages could have some kind of dragon to travel on.
That's enough for now I think...
Springheel on 21/5/2009 at 20:54
Quote:
So who wants totally random deaths? Unpredictable AI? Same thing.
Yeah, that was an issue we had to wrestle with designing TDM. The more predictable you make AI, the more control players have over their success--you can accurately plan a safe route if you know an AI will always take 43 seconds to complete his patrol, and that he always looks north for 5 seconds at point X, where you can blackjack him.
Those kind of AI take a toll on player immersion, however. It's hard to suspend your disbelief and accept the AI as actual people when they operate like robots.
On the other hand, AI that are totally random makes it VERY hard for the player to control their own success. You can plan perfectly and still be caught because an AI turned their head or appeared somewhere you didn't expect. This is much more realistic, but also less satisfying (for some).
Finding a good balance between the two is a challenge.
hikikomori-san on 21/5/2009 at 21:23
I find the reverse of the "statues coming to life" idea to be more interesting and practical - Garrett should be able to play dead. Of course, on whom this might work and under what conditions would need to be carefully considered.
As for smell, the idea is indeed interesting, but like every other things, needs special attention when implemented as to not ruin the experience and make things overly complicated. Instead of MGS's radar for detecting wind speed and direction, this information can be rather easily conveied in thief by using various types of elements that are affected by wind: cloth, fire (e.g torches), smoke, the clouds, leaves... etc, as well as leveraging the surround sound system that all real taffers will be playing the game on.
Also, here is another "technical" idea for implementing AI vision (I'm a graphics programmer, unemployed yet though). First, preliminary testing is done to determine which AI entities are looking in the direction of Garrett or anything affected by his presence. Then for each of those (should be rather a small number of such entities, probably no more than 3), the scene is rendered from their point of view with simplistic shaders (but proper lighting) into a small render target (say, 64x64), but without Garrett in it. Then Garrett is rendered, and the image with Garrett in it is compared with the one without, and the number of pixels by which they differ and the amount of difference is calculated, and based on that, it can be determined whether the AI entities can see Garrett or not. So, if a small number of pixels only differ (typically when Garrett is away from the AI entity, or when a small part of him is visible from behind whatever cover he's behind), or when the amount (intensity) of the difference is small (typically when Garrett is well hidden into the shadows or blends well with the background), the AI will not see him.
This has the main advantage of increased realism and consistency. Even if you stand in a dark place, if there is brightness behind you, the AI will see your dark silhouette. If a guard is standing in a brighter area, his ability to see stuff in the dark areas around him would be diminished (due to HDR lighting implementing eye adjustment to lighting conditions). Hiding behind "dyanimc" objects would also work then (doors, curtains, grass, people... etc).
Another advantage is that AI vision would then be hardware accelerated. Yet another advantage is that I believe it would be a lot easier to implement than any other way. And the final advantage I can think of is that it is versatile and highly customizable. One aspect of such customizability: in the second pass, instead of rendering just Garrett, other things can be rendered to allow the AI to detect his presense in a realistic manner (the lighting from the torch that Garrett is holding for example). Another aspect: a "movement" shader (a variation of what's used to render motion blur) can be used to render Garrett that would make any moving parts of him brighter, so if he's moving about in the dark, he is more likely to be seen than if he stays still.
MrMunkeepants on 21/5/2009 at 22:04
Quote Posted by hexhunter
On beasts with senses of smell: Ever played MGS4, it worked in that, can't be a common thing though, unless you had to wade through a moat to break into a castle. In MGS4 your radar shows you the direction and strength of the wind, and some enemies will find you if you don't put a building between you and them.
...
I think some undead could be headless, unlike other AI who stay to the light, they could only find their way around by tactile sense, and would have to hold on to walls and objects. Then their heads could be mounted on pikes, acting like cameras, screaming out whenever someone passes by.
first point: as long as it was evened out, it could work. for example, burricks can't see past 10 feet, but could smell you from 50 if you were upwind of them. we'd need a new tool to know, perhaps a handkerchief?
second point: holy crap, someone needs to apply the Watcher mechanics to a zombie head right now! not sure how the headless ones would hear the alarm, but the rest would come running!
Taffer36 on 21/5/2009 at 22:28
That headless undead idea is sick, definitely needs to be implemented.
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One thing that I think would be cool is if AI movement/reactions were a bit more fluid. If you make a light sound, the AI should turn their head while continuing forward. If you make a bit more, they should maybe stop for a bit, and peer into the darkness, and if you make a ton then obviously they should come searching a bit.
I just don't like how mechanical this interaction is in Thief 1 and 2. Either they continue walking, or they reach that magical threshhold where they turn and come searching. Realistically, there are different levels of reactions. Plus I think head turning is important, instead of guards who only see directly where their foots are pointing.
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I think this is important: Realistic does not equate to Randomized, in gaming at least. If an AI surprises the player, the player should be able to say "Oh yeah, I guess I would've done that given his/her situation too." But randomly turning their head or randomly stopping on patrols for a breather will never, EVER make good gameplay.
hexhunter on 21/5/2009 at 23:19
I was going to say about the use of smell that you obviously couldn't have a radar, using trees and grass was my idea, but if you could get your hand on a magical compass like device which points where the wind is pointing that would make it easier.
The zombie heads would supposedly have been put there by necromancers, so there would either be guards or headfull (opposite of headless?) zombies around to hear it. Actually I don't know quite how headless zombies would work, they couldn't exactly call to others, they could lash out at you but not infect you, if there was a hivemind(at least in the local vicinity) then that might work, but you could just keep still as it creeps around you and it would know you were there.
The footprints that were mentioned was a good idea, either when you leave the water or you step on snow, mud, long grass etc, but while snow prints and mud prints on carpet might be noticed by any non-drunk guard, only more advanced NPCs could track you in other cases. There needs to be a counter for the player though.
One other important thing for AIs to have are good battle mechanics, there should be brawls and battles every other mission, of course you could keep out of these, but if you were friendly with one side you might be amble to join in.
Tail on 21/5/2009 at 23:45
I think adding a new tool to give you wind direction is too much. Just have a fixed distance from the AI. It would basically act like a short distance 360 vision. Albeit, unaffected by light levels.
Headless zombies (or some sort of AI) having to feel their way through levels could be amazing. Especially if they'd become adept at it and moved rather quickly. Very creepy. Different levels of alerted gurgling as they try to speak through their absent heads.
SneakyJack on 22/5/2009 at 04:43
Its been mentioned before but it would be very surreal to be hiding in the shadows and see two guards approach each other not knowing if the other is friend or foe and see something like this exchange:
Guard one: State your business!
Guard two: AHHHH, its me Benny!
Guard one: Oh its you again.
They could record a few dozen funny exchanges and I'd wait for those moments each and every time.
Kharan on 23/5/2009 at 17:35
I'd like two of my pet peeves fixed:
*Supernatural knowledge. I hated it in T2 when semi-alerted guards were guided directly to my location. Totally broke the suspension of disbelief.
*Lack of self-preservation. If a guard is shot with a broadhead, his first reaction should not be to go slowly looking for Garrett. No, get the hell out of dodge, or at least eat some dirt. Serious damage + non-identifiable source != search mode. At least, not for very long...
