All this detail.. to what means?

DDL on 14/5/2010 at 18:33

Quote:

The Incredible Machine

Quote:

Bridge Builder, maybe?

Hah! You guys are good.:D

Perhaps I should have said "FPS games pre-HL2", to differentiate it from games where the physics IS the gimmick: HL2 stands out (to my mind) as being a frontrunner in making physics an integral part of what is nevertheless essentially a by-the-numbers shooter.

Regarding crate stacking, I always found it somewhat disappointing that the enhanced realism physics used in HL2 and beyond made that sort of thing vastly more difficult. The ludicrous towers of stacked cylindrical-collisionboxed items that made DX hilarious fun are no more.. :(

Zygoptera on 15/5/2010 at 00:55

I look at the see-saw and equivalent puzzles and just see something similar to the force push/pull puzzles from Jedi Outcast, or the pressure plate puzzles from heaps of games. /Shrug

I do think the biggest bone of contention is predicated on people understandably wanting to associate "good" words like innovation with stuff they like. Really though, so what if Prey is a pos, that doesn't mean that it isn't innovative but Portal is because it is more well liked. Same with Fahrenheit/IP, even if you don't like the game its dialogue system is still innovative. I'll happily accept that HL2's physics integration was very well done, and when it comes right down to it that's the most important thing.

Quote Posted by Sulphur

Did you read that properly?

Let's put it this way. You agree that the point was that AAA games tend not to innovate and you tacitly accept that most don't. Fair enough, no cause for disputation. But your initial refutation involved listing primarily innovative indies as proof that AAA titles are innovative. Your refutation was just complete utter garbage and actually argued against your main point. You got called on it and you have now made a better fist of it second time around. Albeit it would be difficult to do worse.

Ko0K on 15/5/2010 at 05:23

Forget trying to define what innovation is; I'm going to use SS2 as an example to drive my point home. SS2 was immersive despite suffering from poor graphical qualities because of its gripping story, superb voice acting, and believable characters. There were far better-looking games out during its development, but its release wasn't delayed for the need to pretty it up in the same way DNF tried to be the end-all-be-all. It was focused on the gaming experience it was meant to deliver, and that focus wasn't lost on those who enjoyed it.

Whether recent games focus excessively on visual details may be up for debate, but for those who grew up on the likes of SS2, the newer and prettier games feel as though they lack substance. I never made the claim that wasn't anything more than how I perceived the trend.

I don't have issues with dissent; just with dicks who can't even keep themselves from contradicting their own positions because they're too busy being dicks.

june gloom on 15/5/2010 at 06:29

Quote Posted by Ko0K

for those who grew up on the likes of SS2, the newer and prettier games feel as though they lack substance.

As someone who grew up with a bevy of "hardcore" "oldschool" games I find this statement to be patently bullshit. Stop living up to your username and get out.

Ko0K on 15/5/2010 at 06:42

Quote Posted by dethtoll

As someone who grew up with a bevy of "hardcore" "oldschool" games I find this statement to be patently bullshit. Stop living up to your username and get out.

I don't know what response you were looking for, but I doubt you'll get it from me.

Namdrol on 15/5/2010 at 08:08

Quote Posted by Ko0K

...those who grew up on the likes of SS2, the newer and prettier games feel as though they lack substance.

Stalker, to name just one?

Sulphur on 15/5/2010 at 08:28

Quote Posted by Zygoptera

Zygo, your problem is that you think the argument is about 'AAA' games. It isn't. The comment that sparked this off was generalised to include ALL of today's games. Your assumption is that because a game has pretty graphics, it's AAA, which is an amazingly narrowminded and flawed viewpoint to say the least. If you want to argue assertions that exist solely in your head and that don't bear much relevance to the topic at hand, go ahead. Don't expect me to join in, though.

And by the by, thanks for the critical analysis of my argumentation skills. You'll forgive me if I don't think too highly of it, given you're hardly what we'd call an accomplished and objective debater yourself.

Ko0K on 15/5/2010 at 16:35

Quote Posted by Namdrol

Stalker, to name just one?

I didn't clarify, but by "the likes" I meant games that offered enjoyable gaming experience despite the lack of excessive effort on visuals; not just SS2-ish games.

What's considered 'excessive' is anybody's guess, although I certainly have my opinions as to what it is. For someone to call something "bullshit" when it wasn't presented as a fact in the first place is laughable, to be honest, but making a solid argument wasn't on his agenda anyway, as far as I can tell. Whatever the case, my original post here was an expression of my sentiment, which aligns with the OP.

june gloom on 15/5/2010 at 20:01

Oh cry more, you ridiculous twat. Your statement was bullshit, whether it was presented as fact or not, you know it was bullshit, because you made a poor generalization that I pointed out was untrue, but you instead choose to hide "IT'S JUST MY OPINION" instead of growing a pair.

And you're wrong about SS2. SS2 had pretty decent graphics for 2000. Pick a different example. Or better yet, get out.

Namdrol on 15/5/2010 at 20:23

Ko0k, from your post I'm not sure if you've realised but I was being sarcastic, so I'll expand on the implied point I made.

I grew up on SS2, in fact it was late on in my gaming life and I just don't find the generalisation that all newer 'pretty' games lack substance to be true.
And as you said you were going to drive the point home using one game, SS2, I'm using one game to counter, Stalker SOC (only one I've played so far).
With everything turned up to the max, this is a beautiful game that's a fully immersive experience with a complete, well structured back story.