Zygoptera on 16/5/2010 at 23:58

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"That doesn't change the fact that the observation we're discussing was that, somehow in the past, 'AAA' games were 'more innovative' in gameplay". That's from you, a few lines down. When even you are admitting your point is irrelevant it's time to just let it go.

Nope, but the Wii does not prove your point, unless you can show that the Wii being the most "innovative" is not related to it also having by far the lowest graphical capabilities of any next gen system. Else all you've done is help establish a link between poorer graphics and innovation, which hardly helps your point.

They were, in general, due to two main factors: they tend enormously towards straight sequelisation which means that, almost always, subsequent titles in a series get less "innovative"; and the need to make more money to pay for the spiraling dev costs- of which graphics development are a very large part- tends towards lowest common denominatoring and a focus on the immediately apparents such as graphics to maximise the available buyer pool.

In any case, as you admit the argument is not that there is 'no innovation' in the 'AAA' sphere- I think everyone will agree that there is some- but that there is less than previous. Picking a few examples of innovation doesn't disprove that and given the state of things I doubt I would have much problem posting a far longer list of the derivative titles, yes?

Muzman on 17/5/2010 at 03:33

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I've no idea if this is on topic anymore, so I guess we'll see.

I used to be firmly in that 'graphics don't matter' camp. Above a certain graphics threshold (can-o-worms) it's all gameplay and story etc really, Thief and SS2 being prime examples of this. I like pretty pictures as much as the next person, but if there's nothing much behind it it fades fairly quickly (and most pretty pictures are from an endless parade of slightly reworked cliches anyway).
I gotta say this has changed somewhat, thanks to Stalker most of all but also Mirror's Edge. These are two games whose graphics are so integral to the experience I doubt they'd work the same without them ( for me anyway). Mirror's Edge is pretty innovative in its interactions and player movement and so forth, so the design isn't all its got going for it. But Stalker, man, most of what it's doing is graphics based. The mechanics and so on, while good, we've seen before. The wildlife AI system is one of its larger achievements, I have to admit. But in the end I don't think any of it would work if the detail level wasn't high, the levels huge, the textures great, the lighting married perfectly to the textures in all weathers, and the design so perfectly fitting the fanciful elements with real fittings and fixtures (the suits, places like (http://members.iinet.net.au/~ragtag/x18embryos.jpg) this)

To some it's getting a bit dated now, and I think I can see what they're talking about. But the point is that I can't separate its innovations or general success as a game I want to play from the graphics. If they weren't at least on top of the curve, if not ahead of it, in the particular graphics ...era the game is from it wouldn't have worked.

It's kinda interesting to have to admit that to myself. Of course there's a bit of definition problem around "graphics" since it's not one thing, but there might be other examples folks have for themselves.

june gloom on 17/5/2010 at 04:22

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Well it's a good game. Especially the third one, not so much the second, but it all balances out I guess.

june gloom on 17/5/2010 at 04:45

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That's okay, I've had a 20-year obsession with Megaman that's not going away any time soon.

Muzman on 17/5/2010 at 04:54

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Astute guess good sire. But it's a bit of a coincidence I'm yammering on about it again in this case. You could make a similar sort of argument for Half Life 2 if you wanted to, but a lot of people like the story and vehicles etc. Plus it was pretty innovative in a lot of ways to most people.
I don't think Stalker would get the same sort of credit. Most of its FPS tropes aren't that fantastic by most views; the story is interesting but a bit clunky; is scripted stuff doesn't always work out. The RPG aspects are a step down from SS2 and so on. The setting and the way it's presented is its trump card, moreso than most games (whether that constitutes "graphics" as such is up for debate I suppose)