All this detail.. to what means?

Eldron on 13/5/2010 at 16:50

Quote Posted by LittleFlower

Textures, models, animations, lighting. Biosphere did a great job here, because it created that whole 50's look. I hope it has set a trend.

I tried reading some more but couldn't continue from here, turns out its your lucky day, you're getting xcom!

...oh fuck :(

Sulphur on 13/5/2010 at 16:58

Quote Posted by EvaUnit02

Ummm, no. Those are iterative, not innovative. Even stuff as early as Thief had rudimentary physics applied to objects.

That's iterative, but in a different aspect, which is world simulation.

Following off what Chade said, having physics attributes tied to objects in a game and using physics simulations to drive and change core gameplay conceits are two different things.

@LittleFlower: You've got some points, I'll give you that, but the conclusion that you ended with is already happening: thanks to digital distribution, we've had an explosion of indie games in recent years that are in fact cheaper to make and change/explore gameplay paradigms in different ways.*

Also, It's not like your mainstream AAA titles are completely bereft of innovation or ideas. Shadow of the Colossus, Ico, Heavy Rain, Mirror's Edge - they're all fantastic, and all quite different from your run of the mill video game genre piece. I see no reason at all why mainstream and 'arthouse' indie games can't co-exist. I happen to like plenty of games from both sides of the pond. Hell, I think there's even plenty of cross-pollination potential there that should be realised.

*And, now that the UDK is out there and free for non-commercial use, which is a world-class and easily programmable engine, we should see more people willing to realise their ideas even if they'll have to do it for free.

Muzman on 13/5/2010 at 18:21

Quote Posted by Sulphur

thanks to digital distribution, we've had an explosion of indie games in recent years that are in fact cheaper to make and change/explore gameplay paradigms in different ways.*

aside: Although the sooner they get the hell away from tweaking scrolling shooters and platform games the better it'll be (perhaps UDK and the like will help).

Sulphur on 13/5/2010 at 19:12

Fair point. I'm sort of tired of that schtick too.

gunsmoke on 13/5/2010 at 19:45

Quote Posted by Muzman

aside: Although the sooner they get the hell away from tweaking scrolling shooters and platform games the better it'll be (perhaps UDK and the like will help).

*claps*

Yeah, I like Trine and whatnot, but MY GOD MAN, how many of these things need to exist?

Zygoptera on 13/5/2010 at 23:28

Quote Posted by Sulphur

Today, we don't have things like motion sensing controls, cross- and post-genre games like Darwinia and Borderlands, indie games like Braid, The Void, and The Path which twist the core ideas of gameplay, and let's not mention the trend where workable physics simulations form a fundamental part of the game, like, for example, World of Goo and Half Life 2.

Yeah. The past was way more exciting. People in game development these days are just slacking off. :tsktsk:

So, we have motion sensing controls (at present Wii only, the least graphical intensive console) Darwinia, Braid, The Void, The Path, WoG (effectively all indies, certainly none of them AAA and only one of which has anything approaching AAA- or graphical arms race, if you prefer- graphics, The Path) a citation of genre blending as an innovation without any supporting evidence (Mass Effect blends RPG and Gears' 3p action gameplay yet is it even slightly innovative?) and HL2 which simply iterates existing principals- sheesh, psi pull in SS2 is 90% of the gravity gun and I'd bet NV could write a script to turn it into one pdq- and using something like force push to shift boxes around in various Star Wars games covers the rest of HL2's "innovations" physics wise. As EvaUnit implied HL2 is almost entirely iterative in this regard, and most others really, not that that necessarily makes it a bad game, of course.

Primarily though, your citing of indies is facile, and pretty much an admission that you haven't read what was written, to whit:

Quote:

Ideally eye candy should be pursued to the extent where it adds to immersion, but I get this sad feeling that the so-called 'graphical arms race' takes place these days because there happens to be a demand for it.

and further clarified by

Quote:

But to some point in the past, gameplay mechanics also enjoyed some innovations. That 'these days' comment was factoring that in, FYI.

ie the reference is clearly to AAA "graphical arms race" titles so all your Braid's, WoG's and Paths are irrelevant and simply suggest you're arguing a point you'd like to have been made, rather than the one which actually was.

Aja on 14/5/2010 at 00:02

iterative vs innovative?

So by the definition that seems to be going here, something's only innovative if it's never been done before? Very little qualifies for that. In fact, nothing does. Everything is iterative. Maybe not the Big Bang.

But more to the point, SS2 and Star Wars might have had gravity gun-like aspects, but no one cared or talked about them because they weren't as cleverly implemented as in Half Life 2. It innovated by taking something that wasn't really so interesting and making it worthwhile. Prey might have had portals first, but... well you get the idea.

Chade on 14/5/2010 at 00:21

using graphics for non-immersive purposes is totally innovation

EDIT: Just to be clear, the point is that any arguments which rely on comparing "immersion" (whatever the fuck that is) or distinguishing between iterative vs innovative (whatever they fuck they are) is screwed from the outset.

june gloom on 14/5/2010 at 00:41

big bang is so derivative

Gryzemuis on 14/5/2010 at 02:54

Quote Posted by Nameless Voice

I think you're playing the wrong games.

Maybe.
But I wasn't trying to piss on video-games in general.
But when I think about the games I've played in the past, the stories weren't as strong as for example, stories in books or movies. Not because the writers of the stories in videogames are bad, but because a game is maybe not a good medium to tell a story. It's too easy to miss stuff in games. Most of the time you can't go back and read a paragraph again (like in a book). Well, maybe reload an old savegame. Your camera might be at the wrong spot, and you miss a dramatic event (which can't happen in a movie). A cut-scene once in a while just doesn't do it for me. Stories in games are never as impressive as in books or movies. Not in my experience in any case.

I wasn't saying mainstream and independent games can't co-exist. I hope they can. I am just not aware of all those great independent games that supposedly got released in the last few years. But then again, I haven't really been looking. I know where to find independent movies (in my homecity, we have the best film-house in the country). But I haven't been looking hard for small games. I can only think of The Void and The Witcher. Got any suggestions ? (Oops: I saw the lists made by Sulphur and Zygoptera. Tbh, those lists don't seem long).