An idea for pleasing the fans and pleasing the new blood. - by SubJeff
inselaffe on 19/5/2009 at 00:08
Agreed about the garotte thingy but also I cannot understand the appeal of having a crossbow.
It just seems for the sake of it and doesn't really mesh well in my mind with what thief should be about. The bow is more rewarding to use due to arrow arc whereas a crossbow will just be like fps point shoot and subconsciously encourages killing. Mainly I just don't see the point in it. Thief as always been about simplicity done well and a crossbow added just seems unnecessary and almost "too modern" (even though it most probably wouldn't be if styled correctly). I just feel it wouldn't fit in and feels a bit of a gimmick.
Taffer36 on 19/5/2009 at 02:22
Quote Posted by Dan Knott
Agreed about the garotte thingy but also I cannot understand the appeal of having a crossbow.
It just seems for the sake of it and doesn't really mesh well in my mind with what thief should be about. The bow is more rewarding to use due to arrow arc whereas a crossbow will just be like fps point shoot and subconsciously encourages killing. Mainly I just don't see the point in it. Thief as always been about simplicity done well and a crossbow added just seems unnecessary and almost "too modern" (even though it most probably wouldn't be if styled correctly). I just feel it wouldn't fit in and feels a bit of a gimmick.
Well I thought about that too, but in the end I don't think it's much of a big deal if they were to include a crossbow. First you could say that it "doesn't fit", but the Mechanists had them so it's already a part of the canon. And second, you could argue that it seems a bit ridiculous for a thief to carry a crossbow but the same exact arguments could be applied to a sword.
And it really only encourages killing as much as a typical bow would, except that you don't have to worry about the arc. This isn't Bioshock, there's no need to let the player strafe at high speeds whilst firing off several bolts. Just ensure that the aim is only steady when standing still. And it could have other uses, such as allowing the bolts to stick to a larger variety of surfaces that a typical arrow (allowing for more uses of rope arrows or ziplines or more instances where you can retrieve bolts). I think not letting the crossbow shoot fire arrows is a fair compromise, since it takes the deadliest arrow type away from the weapon with easier aim.
theBlackman on 19/5/2009 at 02:37
Let's just look at the reality a minute. True, it's a game. But, a bowman can shoot more arrows in less time than can a crossbowman.
The time it takes to lock, C-ck and fire a xbow makes it unsuitable for Garretts purposes in most cases. It is noisey in comparison. It is BULKY and awkward to transport.
All in all, I think it's a lousey choice. Why does everyone want Garrett to be a walking armoury and a one man army?
What he currently has is more than sufficient for "His" purposes, which same has been proven time and again by the players. In all three (four if you count Gold), games, skill, choice of proper tool (weapon), and timing of use have been more than enough to get G through the missions.
More crap, with more power may feed the children's feeling of power but won't improve the inherent quality of the atmosphere and challenge of the games as they stand, (ignoring the silly additions made for TDS).
kamyk on 19/5/2009 at 04:28
Quote Posted by theBlackman
A garotte is a Killing weapon in most cases. The BJ works fine.
Garrett is NOT an AssassinQuote Posted by New Horizon
Agreed. I just can't understand why people want to deviate further and further from what Thief was and just want more violence.
No disrespect to either of you, but what are Broadhead arrows for then? The choice for sneaky violence has always been there. You can backstab with the beloved sword.
I personally do not play Garrett violently either. The only use I get out of Broadhead arrows is as a cheap alternative to Noisemaker arrows. But I doubt very much that was the intended design decision when adding them into
all three games. They have been there since TDP.
Thief has always been about choice in playing style. Ghosting, general sneak, and yes violence (of the sneaky variety) if you choose it.
Stath MIA on 19/5/2009 at 04:38
@kamyk- Exactly, couldn't have said it better. Let assassin and murderers have their fun, just as long as killing isn't required I'm fine with it being an option.
SubJeff on 19/5/2009 at 10:03
I think people (NH and tBM in particular) are missing the point of my piece.
The idea is to give options to players. Not eveyone plays on Expert and the altenate tools are to allow for wider appeal. I've defined the use of the garrote and the MINI crossbow so each is useful in specific situations which ultimately are appropriate to different playstyles.
I've stayed that I personally won't use violence, but I'm trying to be pragmatic.
There are some posters itt who get what I mean totally.
theBlackman on 19/5/2009 at 11:25
The gaming world is full of games where "kill it if it moves" is the object. Why crap up a good game to make it "more attractive" to those players.
They can play any of the many such already out there. "Call of Duty", Doom III, Farcry, GTA, and so on.
If they want that crap, it's there. THIEF does not need to be brought down to that level of juvenile entertainment.
The "OPTION" to make the game bloodier, is a bad idea. If a player wants that then the should not buy THIEF.
And THIEF should not be made that way to attract them to the game.
Your point is really, MAKE THE GAME FIT THE PATTERN OF EVERY OTHER GAME AND GIVE THE CHILDREN LOTS OF BFG AND BLOOD.
mothra on 19/5/2009 at 11:32
i think he meant killing of the sneaky kind where you can't engage in more than one opponent at a time as opposed to the killin' you described which is more in the vein of doom1+2 where you bum-rush everybody in the room. the option to kill anyone was always there in thief, you just had almost no chances surviving against multiple foes. giving a player the tools to do this is no crime against thief. on the other hand, realizing in thief that killing is much HARDER and more frustrating made me seek out the real thief action: observe, plan, execute
EM can subconciously guide the "new" players to this path. Thief will still be distinctive from other games as long as they lay the emphasis on sneaking/thieving and superior freedom inside the mission-environment (climbing, different paths, different solutions).
a way to kill sneaking is the AssassinsCreed way. first I thought I HAD to be sneaky and always reposition myself on the rooftops to be successful. BUT when I learned the first countermove for my sword and had my first big streetfight I never even tried to continue fleeing or being as "stealthy" as possible in my playthroughs. I just killed every mf in the room because it was so EASY and the repetetive missions made me wanna end the level as quickly as possible. that was defenitely the wrong way to go. it made the game just another hack 'n' slash game.
gunsmoke on 19/5/2009 at 11:32
I want options TheBlackman. Sometimes, I like to go on a rampage in Thief just for a kick. Sometimes I like to Ghost. Sometimes, I like a little of both. It depends on the situation and my mood. I don't save in-mission. I always played Thief as a one-shot-at-glory game. So, I have to do what I have to do in-mission, and sometimes it comes down to their life or mine.
To each their own, but I think options are NEVER a bad thing. That is why they are called OPTIONS. They are OPTIONAL.
mothra on 19/5/2009 at 11:41
like I said above, options are good and with the proper balancing you don't end up using just ONE gun or approach because it is so overpowered. balancing will be key when ppl will play thief. if the weapons are too powerful, everybody will hack/slash thru the level and nobody will ever experience the cool sneaking options, paths and excitement. Give the player OPTIONs, yeah, but balance them so you have an emphasis on stealth and vulnerability of your character. that is a key to a THIEF game. if you start really handing out BFGs you don't need to code all that visibility/sound/sneaking stuff.
