catbarf on 19/12/2018 at 16:34
Quote Posted by Tocky
Not true. Trigger is not released. Pressure is constant or else it would not fire. The gun moves back and forth but if there was no pressure constantly the firing would cease. It would push the finger out of the way on the return instead of depressing the mechanism again. It's a fine line but there it is. The pressure is constant. It is not released. If it were released then the weapon would stop and stopping is not the function of a bump stock. If it were then the point would be moot.
If congress wants to do extra paper work and the NRA really WILL let them do it then fine but the case is there for no extra work required. And yes technically it is still the pushback of expelled gas which operates any automatic including bumpstock and mere semantics where along the chain of causation the action is performed. It is still constant trigger pressure and moving machinery caused by the expelling of gas. As a matter of fact your explanation of returning bolt emphasizes that. It matters not whether it is the whole machine moving or one piece of it.
You said you would like to see an engineer explain this stuff to Congress, I gave you the explanation from ATF's Firearms & Ammunition Technology Division. You seem to have your own idea of what a machine gun is, but it's not the definition ATF has historically used, so I'm not sure what your point is.
I'm not sure why you keep saying 'trigger is not released', either. The trigger has to be released for a bump-fire stock to function. The fact that it only fires once per trigger pull, and requires an external input to operate the mechanism, is the fine line that made it not fall under the definition of a machine gun, as ATF confirmed in several decision letters. Their engineers said it's functionally different, their lawyers said it's legally different. This reversal leaves it completely up in the air as to what the new standard or definition is.
You can call it semantics, but those semantics are exactly why an actual law is needed, not yet more patchwork policy on top of a fundamentally broken gun control scheme. This decision allows stuff like trigger cranks and binary triggers to still be sold, while bump-fire stocks are singled out because they're in the public spotlight. Passing a law isn't just extra paperwork, it's setting a consistent standard that might accomplish the desired effect (outlawing 'technically legal' circumventions of machine gun laws) rather than symbolically banning one of the least effective products for that purpose.
TTK12G3 on 19/12/2018 at 19:52
Quote Posted by jkcerda
Tocky, if your 67 mustang was reclassified as a gross polluter and you were told to destroy it w/o any compensation what would you tell the GOVT??? thank you.
1. That is a classic car, and there are not nearly enough of them around in running condition to cause issues.
2. Subtle improvements can decrease emissions.
Quote Posted by catbarf
I'm not sure why you keep saying 'trigger is not released', either.
You are re-engineering a gun to have automatic fire.
Renzatic on 19/12/2018 at 20:08
Quote Posted by TTK12G3
1. That is a classic car, and there are not nearly enough of them around in running condition to cause issues.
2. Subtle improvements can decrease emissions.
They'll make me put a catalytic converter on my classic 'stang over my cold, dead body. :mad:
TTK12G3 on 19/12/2018 at 20:15
Quote Posted by Renzatic
They'll make me put a catalytic converter on my classic 'stang over my cold, dead body. :mad:
"Classic" is a buzzword, anyway. :p
Nicker on 19/12/2018 at 20:36
MEANWHILE...
In the Trump universe (which presently includes guns and muscle cars), Donald needs to hear your personal message of gratitude, all 38% of you _deplorables,_ as his campaign manager actually calls you on TV ads for this toll free service. Please call 1-800-684-3043 to leave your five seconds of fawning praise, before the appeals for money start...
jkcerda on 19/12/2018 at 20:38
Quote Posted by TTK12G3
1. That is a classic car, and there are not nearly enough of them around in running condition to cause issues.
2. Subtle improvements can decrease emissions.
You are re-engineering a gun to have automatic fire.
bump stocks have been linked to ONE mass shooting, your "classic" mustang needs to be destroyed by YOU WITHOUT compensation or else you will go to jail.
TTK12G3 on 19/12/2018 at 21:03
Quote Posted by jkcerda
bump stocks have been linked to ONE mass shooting, your "classic" mustang needs to be destroyed by YOU WITHOUT compensation or else you will go to jail.
Oh, just one? How many of those rounds hit you?
Your second argument is a strawman. If the gun has historical value, it can be made safe, registered and put on display. Arguably, you can do the same with a car. You can't use that argument for a relatively new gun. In addition, a classic car has a far greater monetary investment than a gun, unless you decided to put a bunch of stupid overpriced optics, compensators and weapon grips on it.
Furthermore, you can argue that a car has "economic value" in that it drives you to work or whatever. Again, a gun does not have such a value.
I don't really mind having firepower available to civilians, but I do think it should be MUCH harder to get than it is at the moment.
jkcerda on 19/12/2018 at 21:05
Quote Posted by TTK12G3
Oh, just one? How many of those rounds hit you?
Your second argument is a strawman. If the gun has historical value, it can be made safe, registered and put on display. Arguably, you can do the same with a car. You can't use that argument for a relatively new gun. In addition, a classic car has a far greater monetary investment than a gun, unless you decided to put a bunch of stupid overpriced optics, compensators and weapon grips on it.
it's an analogy, not a straw man, people need to destroy their bump stocks or be deemed criminals....
Tocky on 19/12/2018 at 23:26
Actually the best analogy would be that you had to remove your glass packs and put regular mufflers back on which has already been done plenty in the past.