Beleg Cúthalion on 8/1/2010 at 20:36
No idea. It's implemented in so many scripts (even the Cradle lights, at least the Paranoia Contribution) that I come to think it's just another global int to store values in it, but on the other hand it encompasses the AI's sensory awareness, the appearance of objects, so long story short: I'd like someone else to explain it to me. :p
Vae on 8/1/2010 at 20:40
Quote Posted by jtr7
It's actually far simpler, and elegant in the Thief tradition. It would be a couple of toggles and a small set of variables per mission, set by the level designers according to the fiction--not...patches (?). And since all the games have missions near each other as well as far, and there are missions close in time as well as a long time apart, the fiction would have the ultimate say. Just as even the missions themselves had consequences shaping the missions, so would this. It wouldn't work separate from the fiction but as an enhancement.
Also, those few variables would automatically handle changes in difficulty levels. The stats systems are already in place, and those numbers would become half of the variables the other numbers and settings would all modify the outcome.
It's not as radical or fundamentally deviating as it appears, but quite simple, but effective for immersion and realism, and it takes into account the obvious. A murder streak in a Hammer mission won't cause problems in a Pagan mission following right after it. In fact, there could be signs of celebration if the Pagans caught word of it--and no, I'm not even remotely alluding to a Faction Alliance Status. Screw that crap. :p
Exactly true...and elegantly stated...:)
Quote:
TDS already has half of the system in place behind-the-scenes, but not used in-game the way Vae proposes. Depending on the players' actions (the stats used to fill out the city district crime reports posted in-game), the TDS fences would comment on the player's job.
So...for this CTL system, instead of hearing about it, or just hearing and reading about it as before, we would see it and experience it when it makes sense to, at a level according to the missions' settings, determined by the devs' knowledge of time, place, and Faction in relation to the previous mission. Adding in modifiers that work off the stats, or nullify them as needed, there is no requirement to record new voice-overs, or create new readables, and they can be tuned to serve the fiction, and the fiction can be made with the system in mind.
The CTL system could be used to seamlessly trigger events in many different ways, including auxiliary story events and may even be used to dynamically alter or add fixed difficulty objectives, if desired.
Multiple CTL's could also be used, and they could be made to be sympathetic to each other, depending on preferred and logical design.
The CTL feature would enhance and dimensionalize the core design of THIEF, creating an even more immersive and dynamically responsive experience.
I've added this comment to my first post...:)jtr7 on 8/1/2010 at 20:55
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
No idea. It's implemented in so many scripts (even the Cradle lights, at least the Paranoia Contribution) that I come to think it's just another global int to store values in it, but on the other hand it encompasses the AI's sensory awareness, the appearance of objects, so long story short: I'd like someone else to explain it to me. :p
It "sounds" like something harmoniously related with what we're conceptualizing here, but I'd like to be sure. Just the surface of it looks like what we're talking about. I also would like to know if it was built in for Thief or if the original un-modified engine and editor have it, too.
R Soul on 8/1/2010 at 22:00
I voted for the second option because no-kill goals are quite appropriate for those missions where Garrett has been hired to steal something. Potential clients might get squeamish if Garrett gets a reputation as a killer. Of course there will be situations where Garrett is doing it for himself, and in those cases the player should have a choice as long as there are consequences.
I don't think the difficulty changes should be too complex. I think just a few extra guards would suffice the first time round. The player would also need to know, so there ought to be a conv between two people saying how a thief broke into a shop on Bumford Street and killed a few people, so they've put more guards on the streets in case he strikes again.
Also, this:
Quote Posted by jtr7
It's for those missions that are back-to-back or in adjacent districts, returns to the same districts later
Bakerman on 8/1/2010 at 22:44
Quote:
the more killing, the more difficult it will become for the player to achieve their objectives, as a result of an increase of security and alertness of the people of the City.
We don't need to argue about the specifics - it's this I have a problem with. We have two situations here - either the player is doing lots of killing because they enjoy it, or because they're new and killing guards is the easiest way to complete the mission. I can't say anything for the former case, except that it's probably okay to punish them for it :p.
But if you've got a new player who can only just get through by killing guards instead of being able to bypass or KO them, then the last thing you want to do is make things even more difficult for them. This will not only encourage but require them to kill more to keep up with the increased difficulty. I agree that if they realise what's going on they'll try not to kill people, and that's a good thing - but that just makes it even more difficult for them, to a point where it's absurd.
I guess the converse isn't so much of a worry, since you're not advocating making missions easier to reward no killing, but that negative loop for inexperienced players worries me.
jtr7 on 8/1/2010 at 23:10
Yeah, R Soul. Elegance, and power with something small and deceptively simple would be the model.
Bakerman, yes. Before a player begins to make mistakes in a mission, they should already know that avoidance is the game, with provided laxity, and they should not enter the first mission unaware of options. Running is always an option, and for Thief, not a cowardly act. One must really botch it to not be able to run away from a fight, and one must really be in the wrong frame of mind to forget their other tools and non-lethal methods. Before the first mission, the player should know where they need to build skills and where they should refrain from tactics meant for other games. Before the first mission, they should be given every reason to not be ignorant, and if they choose ignorance, they fully deserve to be penalized with obvious consequences.
This looks to be along the lines of where to start as a general idea for the tools in the apps EM is using, and if it's already built into the software before the devs use the tools, that's excellent!
Inline Image:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Paranoia.gifBakerman on 9/1/2010 at 07:29
Quote Posted by jtr7
Before a player begins to make mistakes in a mission, they should already know that avoidance is the game, with provided laxity, and they should not enter the first mission unaware of options. Running is always an option, and for Thief, not a cowardly act.
I'm not necessarily thinking about cases when you've alerted guards and need to escape from them - though that situation is difficult as well, since unless you're fairly adept at the stealth or movement parts of the game then you're going to have some trouble evading guards. And thinking back to my first plays - if I was in a position where I needed to run away, that was going to mean I had to run
all the way away, back to a 'safe' spot... killing all progress I had made since that safe spot.
But I mean even in situations where a player is thinking 'there's a guard standing by that gate with a torch... should I try to sneak all the way around the wall excruciatingly slowly and risk being caught to go for a blackjack? Or should I just kill him with a broadhead from here?' In the case of some new players, it's far easier to go for the kill.
I guess the problem is that if you made the game easier when killing lots of people, it would reinforce that as a viable and acceptable tactic. But I don't think making it harder suits the situation for newer players - don't get me wrong, for most of us here I think it'd be a fine way to balance things, and provide a great 'living' feel to the city. Maybe it does just need to be a case of not worrying about the potential for a positive feedback loop and make sure new players know that killing people will make things seriously tough for them.
Hmm. That's an easy solution :p
Okay, I like the idea :thumb:
:p
jtr7 on 9/1/2010 at 07:43
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I'm not necessarily thinking about cases when you've alerted guards and need to escape from them - though that situation is difficult as well, since unless you're fairly adept at the stealth or movement parts of the game then you're going to have some trouble evading guards. And thinking back to my first plays - if I was in a position where I needed to run away, that was going to mean I had to run
all the way away, back to a 'safe' spot... killing all progress I had made since that safe spot.
But I mean even in situations where a player is thinking 'there's a guard standing by that gate with a torch... should I try to sneak all the way around the wall excruciatingly slowly and risk being caught to go for a blackjack? Or should I just kill him with a broadhead from here?' In the case of some new players, it's far easier to go for the kill.
I guess the problem is that if you made the game easier when killing lots of people, it would reinforce that as a viable and acceptable tactic. But I don't think making it harder suits the situation for newer players - don't get me wrong, for most of us here I think it'd be a fine way to balance things, and provide a great 'living' feel to the city. Maybe it does just need to be a case of not worrying about the potential for a positive feedback loop and make sure new players know that killing people will make things seriously tough for them.
Hmm. That's an easy solution :p
Okay, I like the idea :thumb:
:p
As for the first paragraph: You're talking about Thief, right? I'll say again, it's never so extreme where killing is necessary unless you aren't sneaking and preparing yourself. You deserve the consequences for not planning ahead. Truthfully. It would be your perception, perhaps from immersion and/or not understanding how much power Garrett has, to assume killing is ever necessary. Going up is often an option and will stop having to go all the way back to wherever, as well. And you have several non-lethal options. Be prepared and prepare yourself first.
And once again, this proposal is not looking to ramp up the consequences that high, so you can relax about it. It won't get so much harder, you will just have consequences for being murderous, and a new player playing on Expert can't complain that it's too hard. Again, it's the player's fault for assuming anything that contradicts the plainly stated facts, instead of being totally open to learning and learning from mistakes. Not paying attention should make things harder.
Bakerman on 9/1/2010 at 11:49
I agree, I think I overplayed the difficulty of sneaking versus killing when I made my argument. In practice, the system can most likely be tweaked so you don't get into a horrible feedback cycle and end up wading through corpses. But in principle, this is how I see it:
-'Excessive' killing is a sign of inexperience or inability
-Killing is punished by making the game more difficult
-So the game will be more difficult for the inexperienced or unskilled, which is NOT desirable
SubJeff on 9/1/2010 at 14:50
Nonsense.
If you kill alot you're doing it wrong and you need to learn. Being punished for playing it wrong is fair enough and is why on expert you get no-kill objectives - that is the way it is meant to be played.
This is no different to being shot in the face if you run straight at a heavy MG position in Call of Duty. You died because you did it wrong.
Because the earlier levels will be easier anyway new players can learn to stealth it there. If you have a difficulty setting too all it does it alter the thresholds at which the game gets harder if you play it wrong.
