Beleg Cúthalion on 9/1/2010 at 19:30
Well, but you're dead this second and not twenty minutes later which would otherwise make the learning moment a bit strange. I don't know what's so difficult to understand about the Bakerman's objection, the idea was only to prevent some sort of difficulty cascading for new players, not to passively encourage them to act violently. Plus, if we focus on this more-AI-to-punish-the-violence-thing... wouldn't make this idea (or rather the opposite case) the game too easy for experienced players? I mean, the difficulty level doesn't rise with your capabilities but decrease?
Bakerman on 9/1/2010 at 22:17
Sorry SubjEff, I forgot a point :p
Quote Posted by Bakerman
-'Excessive' killing is a sign of inexperience or inability
-Killing is punished by making the game more difficult
-So the game will be more difficult for the inexperienced or unskilled
-This necessarily leads to more killing, thus making it harder again
It's the cycle I'm worried about.
Quote:
Well, but you're dead this second and not twenty minutes later which would otherwise make the learning moment a bit strange.
Yep - I refer you to Heinlein's discussion of raising dogs in Starship Troopers :p. (Sorry... I'm reading that for like the sixth time and it's fresh in my head.) Also, I'd be worried about to what extent the effects are reversible. For example, if you die in CoD because you screwed up, you immediately retry and correct your mistake. If you do a level, complete it and save, then find that the next level is too difficult... well, there's nothing you can do to correct that mistake short of replaying that entire first level again.
SubJeff on 10/1/2010 at 01:09
Well that cycle should be entirely possible and I don't have a problem with it. If you kill enough people that there are patrols everywhere and a curfew on because there is a mad killer on the loose then you did it to yourself so eat it.
theBlackman on 10/1/2010 at 03:45
In effect, I agree with Subjective. Bakerman has a valid point about new players, but that could be avoided by some emphasis on the Kill, No Kill, ramifications.
The problem as I see it is like the Sticky threads. Nobody takes the time to read them before they jump in with a comment/question or suggestion.
Too many gamers forget the basic premise for any new device or game towit: READ THE FUCKING MANUAL. Or in this case the "training" mission or ingame warnings about the results of mass murder.
jtr7 on 10/1/2010 at 04:46
If any Thief mission is too difficult, it won't be because of the CTL, it'll be because Thief pwns your ass, anyway. The CTL won't ramp it up so high. Anyone else notice we have already reached the point of repeating what's already been said? There...is...no...cycle...
SubJeff on 10/1/2010 at 11:10
But I think it should get that hard that it is literally impossible - not just because "Thief pwns your ass", but because security should get so tight you cannot evade the patrols and you cannot fight all of the enemies. If you're not going to pay attention to the rules you should be punished for it.
There is too much handholding in games. People are now going to whine and wring hands and start talking about difficulty curves putting people of buying games.
I call bullshit. Anyone having this PoV go and read about Demon's Souls right now. Recognised as hard as nails and yet this is one of the lures of it. If Thief 4 stops going down the catch-all nonsense that Thief 3 was leaning towards and went back to being hardcore stealth it would stand out much more, be unique and importantly actually be good.
Platinumoxicity on 10/1/2010 at 12:21
I think this feature is a bit harsh for beginners. People who are bad at Thief get punished by getting even more challenge, and professionals who can handle any mission on expert get rewarded by less challenge? I think it's all backwards. :devil:
SubJeff on 10/1/2010 at 14:51
It doesn't have to start that way though. You could have warnings given at the end of the first few missions by way of fences and other underworld people mentioning that security will get tight and the thief racket tough if all this murder continues.
Plus people playing on expert should be encountering smarter, more aware and unforgiving AI that are more relentless in hunting, setting of alarms and getting help. People on easy wouldn't have to deal with this but if they persist in killing then the difficulty should scale up, yes.
And if it means noobs getting pwned because they think they are playing Assassin Simulator then you know what? Eat it an like it or go play another game. Unfortunately for them this is the way the game needs to work because its a different type of game and not Splinter Cell or Metal Gear or frakking Modern Warfare 2.
Platinumoxicity on 10/1/2010 at 15:54
So you're saying that the noobs should actually play on normal and learn to play better in order to make it on expert? That... that actually makes sense. :D
SubJeff on 10/1/2010 at 15:59
Well they don't have to. When I get a new game I'm technically a "noob", but I play everything on the hardest setting from the start because that's the kind of player I am.
