Stath MIA on 14/5/2009 at 00:12

---

Ah, the Fire Crystal looks much better now, I don't know how it got cut off on the Wikia. Thanks Dan, you da man! :cheeky::thumb:

jtr- Don't worry about it dude, I'll fix it up in Photoshop if Gadget can't!

Gadget2006 on 14/5/2009 at 04:12

---

@ jtr7: Thanks a lot for the complete crystals! Now, I really wish I knew how to turn them into actual card pictures... Elemental crystals on gray background don't look too hot as card pictures, and as you rightly said, there's no way to do simple color replacement on those pics... If someone could help turning those into good card pictures I'd be very grateful!

@ Stath MIA: Your help is also very much appreciated!

@ All the testers: Beta 4 is delayed a little bit - I'm fixing some minor issues with Pagan Shaman that sprung up just recently (the AI opponent is trying to discard it from time to time from its permanent area on Consult the Glyphs, as if it were a card in its hand, LOL), and I'm waiting for some new testers to submit their e-mail addresses.

@ Xorak: Thank you for a deep and long post exploring the possibilties of Thief-style card games! Your ideas are indeed very interesting, though I have to admit there's little chance that most of them will make it to the current card game I'm making (Gauntlet, that is). Of course, if I were indeed making a brand new, completely MTG-unrelated (and Thief-unrelated, just Thieflike, because remember that Thief is also a copyrighted property of Eidos/LGS!) card game from scratch with intention to market it in the future, I'd definitely choose to go your way and think up a system like you say or a system similar to that. However, that's not something I'm doing at the moment. I've had the Gauntlet game system laid out for the previous ten years (I've been playing the thing with my friends since about 1999), I know the intrinsics of the game, all the tricks, all the rules - which means I can effectively code not only the game itself, but also the artificial intelligence (which, as I think some of the testers may confirm, is pretty strong already and can beat the crap even out of experienced players). I can adapt new cards into the system without being too afraid of breaking the game balance, because basically I know what's good for this game and what's not good for this game. In other words, I know what I'm doing, and that's the most important thing when you're coding a computer game based on a non-computer game (IMO). Now, having the game system and the game rules laid out, the only thing I want to do is I want to adapt the game of Gauntlet (which, I admit, is based on MTG, but which has no relation to Spellfire, even if there might be some unintentional similarities) to the setting of Thief - with no commercial interest involved whatsoever. The problem with your suggestions is that they're not a part of any specific game system yet - which means that in order to build a card game based on your suggestions I'd have to scrap everything I have and go back to square one, think up a brand new game system based on completely new game mechanics and principles (which are quite vague at the moment), balance it carefully and explore the game deeply enough in order to be able to code the AI, then recode the entire game (which is over 20,000 lines of code already!) based on completely different principles - which, I assure you, would take another two or three years to accomplish at the very least if I have enough time and patience to live through it. Of course, that's definitely not something I'd like to do at the moment. However, I definitely see that your suggestions are indeed very interesting as a separate game (to tell the truth, I'd *love* to play a card game like that if it existed!) and I'd like to say that if you'd like to turn those suggestions into an actual Thief-like card game, go for it! I'd love to see what comes out of it and I'd love to play a card game like that (and if the entire system is ever created and the cards are thought up, maybe we'll even join our efforts in creating a computer version of the game after I'm done with Gauntlet. :)). I can understand if you don't like my game principles too much and find them, for whatever reason, overly simplistic or anything - I don't expect my game to appeal to each and every person in the world. However, I've made up my mind on finishing the game (based on whatever principles there are in Gauntlet) and then donating it to the Thief community, as an absolutely free-for-everyone gift of appreciation of all the fan work that was done during the years, hoping that some people will find it interesting and fun to play my game. Basically speaking, it's too late for me to stop and it's too late for me to scrap the whole thing and rethink it. I'm heading straight for the end of the project, which might not be the most successful and interesting Thief-like thing around but which hopefully will be fun for some people. :D

By the way, speaking of "simple" - I can't say I find your definition of Gauntlet as "simplified" MTG correct. Yes, it started as a simplified version of MTG ten years ago, but it has long outgrown that definition and it's become a rather complex, deep game. It features a rather peculiar strategy that is completely unlike MTG and that is definitely much more than just "direct attacking" (and it is, in fact, quite Thief-esque in that it requires patience, plan, and some "trapping" skills to succeed). If you attack directly every time, using your best creatures and other forms of attacks, you'll lose very quickly, and you'll lose almost every time (if not every time) if you're playing against a more-or-less experienced player. In this respect Gauntlet is actually somewhat similar to Thief - in Thief you can also choose to yell "Banzai!" and rush to your opponents with your dagger held proudly, but then again - how successful is that attempt likely to be? Same in Gauntlet: nothing is stopping you from using direct attacks every turn, but most likely you won't be successful with that.

I hope my long answer to your long post didn't get you discouraged. I wish you good luck with the card game you have in mind - if you ever turn it into an actual system (even non-computerized, just maybe a set of cards one can print and then play with his friends + a rulebook), I'd love to be one of the first people to test and play it!

Xorak on 14/5/2009 at 06:32

---

Gadget2006,

I wasn't attempting to call the game simple by any means. I guess I just did a poor job of quoting your words when you said: "they found the rules to be too convoluted, so we simplified them." That's all that my comment meant, I should have said instead that it's a variant of MTG. I apologize for that. I realize too that that quote is more than a year old. Besides, don't get me wrong I'm no rules-whore or anything like that. I don't seek out complex games, I seek out fun games -- regardless of the rules. If the game is fun I'll play it. I'm definitely not pre-judging your cardgame. Let me add too, that I haven't ever played MTG beyond the second expansion for it, which (checking Wikipedia) came out in 1994. So I'm certainly no MTG follower or fanboy.
I have played quite a bit of the original PC game that came out way back when. And I'll tell you, ever since playing that, I've wanted a cardgame on the PC that actually had tough AI. I’m looking forward to your game despite what you may believe. Like you say, how can I actually feel bad about something you’re donating to the community?

I know too how hard it is to see a project through. My life revolves around counting how many words I manage to write any given day, over the course of a year. It's not much more different than programming. I'm so excited to be nearly done my own projects that I know exactly how you guys feel. And right now, I’m pre-congratulating you and all the other members working on the game. :thumb:

Your post didn't discourage me in the slightest. No worries on this end. I was just throwing out ideas. I was so excited by the prospect of a thief cardgame that all these ideas just kind of popped up as I was typing. What turned initially into a: “Oh my god a thief cardgame” derailed instead into a bunch of random concepts. I guess maybe it wasn’t the best forum for it. As for creating some other type of thief game in the future I'd be all for it. Like you say though, that creating the rules and a non-computerized version first is the first step of a mulit-year journey.

Stath MIA on 15/5/2009 at 01:12

---

Check 'em out y'all:
http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img42/7506/watercrystal.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3416/firecrystal.jpg

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7210/earthcrystal.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7828/aircrystal.jpg

Enjoy!

Stath MIA on 15/5/2009 at 01:37

---

It took me a good 10-15 minutes a piece to find the backgrounds and place the crystals on them, it wasn't all that hard.
The only one I have concerns about shrinking is the fire arrow, you wouldn't believe how hard it is to find a good pic of fire that doesn't look like a photo.