Anyone want to join me in making a Thief Universe-inspired Flash card game? - by Gadget2006
Gadget2006 on 29/1/2008 at 06:13
Quote Posted by The Magpie
So Gauntlet is a MTG variant, for all intents and purposes. Minus mana (and I guess casting cost), since all players use the same deck, so it's a lot more of a chance game than MTG. That's okay.
It was born as a variant of MTG - generally, I kinda laugh when I realise how this game was born. Initially it was born out of a failed attempt to teach some of my friends to play real Magic - they found the rules to be too convoluted, so we simplified them by taking out lands, mana, and stuff, and started with the basic concepts. Afterwards, we changed a lot of things, and yes, while you can definitely trace its definite MTG roots, it is mostly a different game besides maybe the five basic colors you can see, the 20 lives in the beginning, and the basic creature properties (power/toughness-like). It has moved away from MTG by creating new card types that are Gauntlet-specific, and by making completely new cards in settings that hardly resemble MTG. It is a more of a game of chance, yes, but the original deck is quite well balanced so, picking the right strategy and being careful in general, you can win more often than lose. A careless or non-strategic player will lose this game more often than a careful one that keeps to one of the core strategies we devised. So, it's kind of both of a game of chance and skill.
Quote Posted by The Magpie
For me, and a lot of other gamers, we have gotten used to rather excellent artwork and flavor text in card games. I'm sure you'll get help asking around here, but what kind of quality are you asking for?
Of course we're not talking original MTG level of card quality or anything. Like, it's a community game - therefore, it'd be OK if it had "weaker" artwork, but the one that is to the point. So, I don't think I should set a strict requirement for the art (such as the "top-quality only" or anything). :) See below for some more ideas.
Quote Posted by The Magpie
I take it that not all 500+ cards in the deck will have unique art. How many cards do you think would need their own artwork?
Yeah, for the sake of balance there's more than one of the same card in the deck - like, some cards are 2x, and some cards are 4x, and there are many (like 40 maybe, can't remember off the top of my head) Destroy cards. So, I guess there's a little over 100 unique cards in each Gauntlet set. Once again, there's no real full-blown Thief-based or Thief-like set just yet, so it's entirely up to us how many unique cards to make in this set, and therefore, how much artwork we're gonna need for them. At any rate, it's no more than 100 and a little odd anyway.
Quote Posted by The Magpie
Could you possibly use screenshots from the games? Or better yet, from the level editors? Would you be content with black/white pencil sketches or crayon drawings?
Yup, right on, that's OK by me. I guess colored content (such as screenshots from the game/level editors) may look better due to the fact that the card borders and stuff are colored, but in the long run that doesn't matter much.
Quote Posted by The Magpie
How well do you think the different concepts we know from the Thief Universe would lend themselves to your current game mechanics? Would you be willing to rethink some of the card names or functions if you found them to be less compatible with the setting? Would you expand on the setting in order to keep the mechanics? For instance, your example of the "Ethereal Backfire" card isn't really a part of the "canon" Thief Universe, AFAIK. I'm not saying it couldn't be, merely that I know of no occurence in the games of the concept. How far do you think you could push that introduction of new concepts - considering that each element added would risk detracting from the Thief feel of the game? That's something you'd need to consider. Flying carpets? Orcs?
Yeah, I just gave you a sample from one of the Gauntlet sets which has nothing to do with Thief. :) Of course, I'd do my best to keep the feel of the Thief atmosphere - that takes precendence over game mechanics. After all, Gauntlet *is* kind of a community game - something that doesn't have prescribed, written rules. Like, everyone among my friends knows the core rules, but then again - many things change as we play and as we feel something is wrong or not balanced, or just doesn't fit. Therefore, we can bend the rules the way we want to keep it Thiefy and to keep it Gauntlet at the same time. At the very basic level, I'd say we can just rename the card here, keeping the concept (the action of the card, that is), simply because it's a fun card to use. Say, we could call it neutrally - like "Reflect Damage" - or we could provide some Thief setting name for it. Something like that. I'm open to all sorts of suggestions here. But it has do be as Thiefy as possible (at the level of Thiefness we choose in the end - that depends on whether we make it Thief-based or Thief-like, see below).
Quote Posted by The Magpie
And there are the risks connected to using copyrighted material. But if you don't include central concepts to the Thief Universe as more than nods, such as the odd card featuring Garrett, Keepers, Hammers, the Trickster, is it really going to be what you wish it to be?
Quote Posted by The Magpie
I think, personally, that if I'd made this kind of thing for just myself and my friends I'd have used any source I felt worked best for artwork. Even copyrighted materials. Creative purposes. Private use. No challenge to ownership intended. Etcetera.
That's what I'm currently doing - it was, and still is, a project intended mostly for myself and my friends. I just thought I could share it with the global Thief community so that everyone can enjoy - there's no commercial interest in it or anything, just a wish to expand on the Thief universe and contribute to it, providing some extra variety and sharing what we've built up over the last few years. I'm not sure, however, how well and smooth this sharing may go in case I reuse copyrighted material - even if I don't seek any commercial interest at all, that is. Any help here would be appreciated.
Quote Posted by The Magpie
OTOH, as I understand things, profiting from this program is right out. Between Wizards and Eidos, I fear you'd be minced. Even putting it on a site under a couple of Google ads would be risky IMO. But it's a very nice thing to share with friends. Without going into a copyright debate, I'd recommend looking into ways of covering your back. Perhaps an explanatory or disclaimer splash screen? An EULA? I don't know.
Yup, there is absolutely no profit intended here, neither now nor later. I'm not asking even for donations - I'm doing it just for the pure fun, both of myself and of everyone I share this game with. Not sure if such a game, even if it's totally free for everyone and has a proper disclaimer/EULA, will still be OK to share, and I have no idea what position Eidos/WotC may assume here. I have some modding experience in general (not Thief-related), I've been modding a D&D game for a while, and no one cared as long as the resulting mod was free for use and didn't ruin the right owner's commercial interests. But I'm not sure if it's the same or different for the Thief games and the Thief Universe... :(
Quote Posted by The Magpie
In sum, I believe you would
want to go with Thief-themed, rather than Thief-styled cards. However, it depends on what you wish to accomplish with it. If you'd like to market that in any way, you're doomed.
Right-o.
Quote Posted by Hewer
Maybe try talking to New Horizon and Springheel over at The Dark Mod to see if they would cooperate with you. They've got a whole backstory and setting all written up on their wiki. There's also audio and concept art for it. I can't speak for them of course, but I really like what they are doing and think it's a great Thiefy alternate to avoid copyright infringement. It's a great setting for fan works.
This would be an interesting idea in case we decide that going with the Thief universe itself is a no-go. Can you please provide a link to their wiki, perhaps in a PM? I'd be interested to take a look at it.
Hope this clarifies my point a bit. :)
The Magpie on 30/1/2008 at 00:22
I'd think the least work would be using Thief art and/or fan art. For Thief concepts and names, there's the ETU coming up some time in the future, of course, but it should be feasible to make do with a less structured way of info collecting in the meantime.
Here's the Dark Mod Wiki, by the way:
(
http://modetwo.net/darkmod/wiki/)
--
L.
jtr7 on 5/2/2008 at 07:37
The ETU's a long way off, but I have a fairly speedy way of getting answers to canon questions, having streamlined the searching & gathering of data for the games. I'm familiar enough with the Thief idiom to know what to look for. Let me know if you want to confirm something.
Gadget2006 on 24/4/2009 at 07:31
Threadomancy! :)
This has been a long-dead (well, seemingly dead, that is) topic, guess not many people actually believed that I was actually creating this Flash card game in the first place (only a few people responded), but I'd like to announce that I'm still actively working on this card game, I actually worked on it all this time (yep, for the last two years, with a couple breaks due to real life issues) and right now the game is closing in on the state when it'd be considered more or less complete. This time is still at least a few months away, but at least I'm definitely getting there. Currently I have the following:
- Almost 80 different cards supported, the game has finally become interesting and varied enough. ISSUE: Not all of the cards have Thief Universe or Thief-Style names, some of them are still quite generic because I don't have a good idea as to how to name them to sound more or less Thiefish.
- Smart, competitive AI that can beat the junk out of the player if he plays carelessly or doesn't pay too much attention to what's going on. It uses a combination of heuristic algorithms and all known Gauntlet tricks and cliche strategies in order to try and find best card combinations in almost any situation. There's still a number of issues left, mostly minor ones, but they're getting sorted out quickly enough.
- Possibility to load AI profiles from external .ini files; right now it's possible to change over 170 parameters of the AI without having to change anything in the game code, which opens up possibilities to create different skill levels or just different personalities for computer-controlled opponents, ranging from purposefully dumb goofballs (easy skill levels) to smart, designing tacticians (hard skill levels).
The main issues with the game are the same as they were two years ago: 1)the game isn't 100% Thiefish - it needs Thiefish or at least Thief-style interface and Thiefish/Thief-style card names; 2) I'm still not sure if I want to make it 100% Thiefish, since I'm not sure if I can use any names like "Garrett" and "Trickster" in it, in the end I probably won't use any names like that and maybe make just a Thief-style game, similar to The Dark Mod's approach to naming conventions etc.
I remember there was someone on the boards who voted to help me with the game interface. Unfortunately, I lost that man's e-mail address and I'm not sure what his nickname was here, the only thing I seem to remember is his real name. Gideon (I think), if you're still here and if you're reading this, are you still up to help me with the game interface?
Also, if anyone else is interested, would you like to test the game (check it out, even though it's unfinished) and possibly help me out with card names and game interface? I can't and don't want to release the game publicly yet (not till it's finished and not till I've sorted everything out with the card and entity names), but I can send a beta version to some of you guys who would like to actively participate in helping me out to finish the project. Please tell me what exactly you can do and what help you can provide, if any.
jtr7 on 24/4/2009 at 08:09
Actually, we were waiting for you to show the goods!:laff: I take it the interface is your priority now, since we've offered what else we can?
The Magpie on 24/4/2009 at 21:44
Good to hear.
I actually still believe that using Thief names, images, etc. would for all practical and noncommercial purposes be OK, and no harm will come of it. Poke around the (
http://thief.wikia.com) Thief Wiki for ideas.
Just remember to credit LGS and Ion Storm. =)
--
L.
Gadget2006 on 25/4/2009 at 03:36
Alrighty then. Yeah, the game will obviously be completely non-commercial and free for everyone, I'm not planning to make any money off of it whatsoever, not even in the form of donations. :)
During the next few days I'll work on creating a "spoiler list" for the game that will contain names of all the cards in their current state; I'll just go ahead and post the list here, separating it into two groups - more-or-less Thief-like and currently non-Thief-like. I'd appreciate it if you'll be able to come up with Thief names for cards that are currently non-Thiefish. ;)
jtr7 on 25/4/2009 at 03:46
A list to "convert" would be good.
NathanGPLC on 25/4/2009 at 12:32
Just to add support so your morale remains high, I really look forward to seeing this!
As a fellow game designer, I appreciate all the effort. Thank you!
redface on 25/4/2009 at 12:58
I've yet to read through the whole thread, but I think I get the general idea - and it sounds great. It would be helpful to see a working sample though, as I never played this kind of card games before.
I always wanted to do card art, but don't really have the time for anything more than small sized (
http://i42.tinypic.com/107m6vk.jpg) b&w artworks once in a while. How close to the original thief world would the art direction have to be (references, visual style etc.)?
You can see my (
http://redworks.sk/my-illustrations/) website for art samples and the taffer art thread here at the forums.
