Platinumoxicity on 30/5/2009 at 22:50
Quote Posted by Jah
There is a pagan in TDS who does exactly that.
I know that. Another thing that's wrong with TDS that I'm considering as non-canon. Hammerites make the buldings stand strong, the pagans make the trees grow trough the asphalt, the Keepers waste time for a living, but something mysterious is raising the dead and it's not the pagans. The TDS development team had to make up something that infuriates the Hammerites but it's removal would infuriate the pagans. They had no imagination at the moment, so: "
Hmm... How about... If we take all the mystery out of the undead by making some faction responsible for it. Can you think of any new faction? Let's see, something new and mysterious. How about... nah... I can't think of anything. Let's go with the pagans."
I don't think the pagans deserve any more power than they already have. Pagans already got 8 feet tall tree monsters, 4 different alien species' armies and a magical realm of Chaos. What do the Hammerites have? Hammers?
infinity on 31/5/2009 at 03:03
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
What do the Hammerites have? Hammers?
Buildings.
Kenzie on 31/5/2009 at 03:58
The hammerites are evil cruel bastards who kidnap those they view as heretics and then they lock them up and torture them in various nasty ways. And they wipe out animal species like burricks and those cute little beetles.
I like animals, and I like trees so I'm gonna have to go with the pagans.
Stath MIA on 31/5/2009 at 04:31
Quote Posted by Schizoid
The hammerites are evil cruel bastards who kidnap those they view as heretics and then they lock them up and torture them in various nasty ways. And they wipe out animal species like burricks and those cute little beetles.
I like animals, and I like trees so I'm gonna have to go with the pagans.
And the Pagans are psychotic whack-jobs who betray and murder normal people (like that one family from the Pagan mission in TDS) and rip people's eyes out to power artifacts (duh). Both side are equally evil and equally noble. As for the burricks, I think you've got the Mechs and Hammers confused, it was Cavador who ordered his team to cleanse the KD site of them.
Kenzie on 31/5/2009 at 05:24
Quote Posted by Stath MIA
And the Pagans are psychotic whack-jobs who betray and murder normal people (like that one family from the Pagan mission in TDS) and rip people's eyes out to power artifacts (duh). Both side are equally evil and equally noble. As for the burricks, I think you've got the Mechs and Hammers confused, it was Cavador who ordered his team to cleanse the KD site of them.
Yeah but the mechanists and hammers are pretty much the same thing anyway. They're both technocratic religious cults that worship the builder and they both want to destroy and pave over the natural world and they both carry large blunt objects that they smite enemies with. The hammers would definitely wipe out any burricks they find. They view animals as vile creations of the trickster.
And I never said the pagans were all sunshine and rainbows either, but I would rather live in the woods than the barracks in a hammer church any day.
TheGrimSmile on 31/5/2009 at 05:27
I would say the Hammers are better, if only because when a sleeping pagan wakes up and accidentaly falls off of his little treehouse, I end up getting blamed for it.
I couldn't use that entrance for a while...
Beleg Cúthalion on 31/5/2009 at 07:18
Quote Posted by Schizoid
Yeah but the mechanists and hammers are pretty much the same thing anyway. They're both technocratic religious cults that worship the builder and they both want to destroy and pave over the natural world [...]
There is a Hammerite tenet that goes something like: "Wood can be used to build the Builder's house and steel in a fight against him", which sounds to me like their respect for nature (probably being the Builder's creation anyway) is bigger than that of the Mechanists - which is part of the reason why the Mechanists were so extreme and different.
I had the idea yesterday (in fact this morning short after midnight) that the Hammerites probably adapted their beliefs to the industrial growth of the City, as a sort of moral/ethical support; while the Pagans finally became the reservoir for some of the ousted farmers outside the City walls (like those who were partly disseized in England before the Industrial Revolution). This wouldn't mean only a nature-technology conflict but rather a social one, winners and losers of the industrialisation. Again, even making it more complex doesn't solve the problem, but I still think that both are/should be equal. I'd prefer living in nature and not in a smoky factory district, but also living in a quiet house and not in the rain and mud.
jtr7 on 1/6/2009 at 06:45
TDP/Gold: With Viktoria and Constantine and the Trickster's minions, the Folk o' the Woodsie needed not to come into The City, and could remain outside unharmed/protected.
TMA: With Con and his minions thoroughly defeated, the Mechanists and the City Watch systematically hunt down and kill every pagan person they find. The pagans send agents throughout The City to discover, undermine, and destroy the Mechanists' plans.
TDS: Now both Con AND Viktoria are no longer, and after much death because of the Hammer/Mechanists, there is fresh animosity; following Viki's final instructions, Dyan and Larkspur have to keep the people in a non-complacent state, as they have to protect themselves. With the removal of the Mechanists and their technology, as well as the corrupt Sheriff Truart and his"new age", the pagans are not considered a threat to be hunted down on the scale Karras had set it at. The pagans' bigotry is stronger than ever, and they are itching for a reason to kill some hammer-heads, and are training for war. And then...Garrett steals The Paw, unbeknownst to the pagans, who think the Hammers had something to do with it. Having justified their motives, the pagans boldly infiltrate The City, no longer claiming and hiding in abandoned Hammer factories and city sections, but encamping in City parks and the Docks. They end up battling it out in the streets until priorities shift, and they may have calmed way back down after getting the Paw back, but we don't really know.
In all the games, the pagans are vicious and desiring to feed their blood-thirsty plants with the flesh and blood of their enemies, which are most City dwellers, but they seem to target those who venture into their territory, and only in TDS do we have pagans infiltrating The City and hurting "innocent" people. That does not change, ever, but what is different is which of them we see, how many, and what their motives are.
The pagans and Hammers are, in my opinion, two sides of the same coin. They have too much in common, but resent to the death any comparison. It's a blood-feud. It's not just Chaos versus Order, or technology versus nature, but mirrors real life but distilled into a morality play. Yes, world-destroying industry versus agriculture and stewardship. Yes, the Hammers don't despise wood, and the pagans have shovels and scythes and whatnot. The pagans seek justice against the Cityheads' sins against nature, too.
"...For the cityman who beated his horse.
Be cursing him with them blackening sickness. ...
He bes dead by next moon.
...
For the cityman who choppered them trees.
Be cursing him with them itchings. ...
First he bes itch and itch. Then soon the madness bes follow."
zaya92 on 1/6/2009 at 08:08
Quote Posted by jtr7
And then...Garrett steals The Paw, unbeknownst to the pagans, who think the Hammers had something to do with it.
Thanks for the long explanation,jtr7, and I don't think that the pagans believed the hammers were guilty of stealing the paw. They sent a letter to garrett (written by Dyan) in which they described that the punishment for his crimes was death,but Lady Victoria would have decided to spare his life.:)
jtr7 on 1/6/2009 at 08:40
After the fact, but first:
T_docksLoadingQuote0: "Two giants, roused from slumber, two blades clashing. Each blames the other...for what the Thief has done. - From Caduca’s Notes on the Prophecies"
