DDL on 24/4/2012 at 16:37
Well, it's a reductionist approach to the most popular aspect of the whole process, which boils down to "make numbers go up". People like systems where X amount of effort is guaranteed to turn N into N+1, possibly because in real life the links between effort and obvious reward are so tenuous as to be nonexistent. Making small numbers turn into big numbers is satisfying on an almost primal level.
Killing monsters makes your EXP number go up: this is a direct reward for effort. If you can also make you "wolf ears collected" number go up, this further boosts that sense of reward. If you can get "+10 exp, +1 wolf ears, wolves killed 1/10", that's three whole number increases for one lousy wolf. Yay!
Ultimately we're mostly all stuck in jobs that feature monotonous grind ANYWAY, so we're accustomed to grind: all these games do is make it clear that the grind actually produces something.
In a way, it's almost touching that they still make the effort to pad the X of N quests with colour text ("I need ten wolf pelts to make a cloak for my daughter's wedding"), since I suspect 95%+ of the players won't even bother reading any of it. Grind and story don't mix terribly well, I think.
Thinking about it (N value of 1 here, admittedly) most of the RPG-esque games I've played where story has felt important have either had non-respawning enemies (so you both feel you're achieving something beyond making yourself produce bigger numbers, and are not tempted/able to grind), irreversible map transitions (you cannot return to the forest, it's all about the mountains now), or an EXP system that hugely favours quest completion over monster killing, and even that latter one has probably tempted me to grind a bit (fucking hacking in DX:HR, for instance..."I HAVE THE PASSWORD, I DO NOT NEED THE EXP, WHY AM I DOING THISSS").
Long story short, if you're a veteran WoW player, you're probably not going to go "OMFG NOT X
OF N QUESTS! I HATE THOSE"
N.B. I have never played WoW, but based on my tolerance for grind, I really don't think I should start.
Koki on 24/4/2012 at 16:51
The thing is - gathering quests are supposed to make the MMOs more immersive, but they end up backfiring around the fifth NPC who wants you to collect sticks for a bonfire. Villages, nay, entire cities of people who sit on their ass all day just waiting for strangers to do menial jobs for them is ultimately much less believable than cities full of NPCs who just say two lines of dialogue and then hope you fuck off forever.
Quests, no matter how small, also carry the stigma of obligation. If you're just killing wolves for XP, you're free to stop and do something else anytime, but if you're killing them for a quest, you're "forced" to kill all of them and only then move on.
faetal on 24/4/2012 at 18:19
To be honest, if I lived in a world which was densely populated with various adventurer types running around looking for chores, I'd for sure sit on my arse all day and palm off my busy work on to them.
Papy on 24/4/2012 at 19:27
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
I'd rather a structured system of objectives (even simple ones) and rewards.
Can you explain what you mean with that? To me, random quests are not a "structured system" of anything, they are only a tool for people who wouldn't have a clue what to do next. Personally, I know a CRPG is about exploration and combat. I don't need an NPC to tell me that's what I should do in the game.
CCCToad on 24/4/2012 at 19:42
Quote:
It's just so blatantly vapid and grind-y. Yes Diablo 1/2 was the same, but at least it had some light story/style/character that gave it a distinct flavor making the experience more unique.
Same could be said of Borderlands. With a unique art style and its own wacky sense of humor the game had a certain appeal. If you loved the wackiness you probably enjoyed the game and vice versa. It also helped that the game provided a much greater variety to the grind. Even after hours playing the game you'd still find weapons which would function differently. Everything from shotgun sniper rifles, to a rocket launcher that's rounds split into more submunitions as they travel.
Chimpy Chompy on 25/4/2012 at 14:07
Quote Posted by Papy
Can you explain what you mean with that? To me, random quests are not a "structured system" of anything, they are only a tool for people who wouldn't have a clue what to do next. Personally, I know a CRPG is about exploration and combat. I don't need an NPC to tell me that's what I should do in the game.
The structure is in terms of - sequence of action, get a reward, further story, breather moment, repeat. Hopefully with some variety (blizz admittedly haven't been great at this. But they have gotten better at storytelling over the years).
I don't really understand what you mean by saying that's not structure. But then your criticism seems to be more that you don't
want structure?
Myself, I played a lot of Morrowind and Gothic and enjoyed the free-roaming aspect, but I wouldn't have wanted them to be *only* like that. I followed most quest lines to the end too. I like to feel some sort of involvement in the particular fantasy world and the events within, and that's helped if you have more in the way of stories and objectives along the way. Otherwise the world becomes just scenery and shopkeepers and the game becomes a bit too aimless.
Koki on 25/4/2012 at 16:54
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
The structure is in terms of - sequence of action, get a reward, further story
I don't think so, Tim.
Papy on 25/4/2012 at 18:36
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
The structure is in terms of - sequence of action, get a reward, further story, breather moment, repeat.
You don't need a random quest giver to have a sequence of actions. You can simply decide, by yourself, what will be your next sequence of actions.
You don't need a random quest giver to get a reward. You only need to choose to explore the world, preferably after learning a bit about it to help you decide where to go next.
You certainly don't need to complete a random quest, playing errand boy, to further, the story. In fact, I think it's the opposite. To me having to fetch 10 wolves skin before being allowed in a camp and talking to new NPC is a way to force the player to wait before learning more about the story.
You don't need to walk back and forth between quests and quest givers to have a breather moment, you only need to decide to have a breather moment.
So again, quest givers are not about "structure", they are about guidance.
Yakoob on 25/4/2012 at 20:01
Hmm, see Papy, but such an experiences feels so... pointless? This is why I never got hooked on MMORPGs which are 90% of quests are so transparent "fetch/kill" variety. I avoid those in RPGs as well; what enjoyment does one get from fetching ten mushrooms? I might as well just walk outside, pick up ten random object I find on the street and bring them home. It would be equally pointless.
For me, that's when the proper "structure" in the form of compelling NARRATIVE (combined with good gameplay) is necessary. If I am to bring 10 wolf pelts and get x amount of gold, it's mundane. But if I need to fetch 10 wolf pelts and the wolves turn to be sentinent beings pleading me to stop killing them and which doing so leads to an unexpected plot twist where the skins are being used to make armor fueling a genocide of some small ethnic minority... that's far more engaging and interesting. Even tho, in the end, you are still just a killer FedEx boi.
Papy on 25/4/2012 at 21:12
Quote Posted by Yakoob
But if I need to fetch 10 wolf pelts and the wolves turn to be sentinent beings pleading me to stop killing them and which doing so leads to an unexpected plot twist where the skins are being used to make armor fueling a genocide of some small ethnic minority... that's far more engaging and interesting.
Woaw! That's some unexpected plot twist! But even that won't work with me. The thing which will make me forget that I'm actually only a "killer FedEx boi" is not the plot twist, but rather if I believe that I am the one who came with the idea. NPCs should not tell me what to do, they should only tell me about the problem. Then, the world should allow me to find a solution. That way, I will feel I'm the one who decided to kill those wolves and I won't feel like a "killer FedEx boi".
Of course, it's simpler to place a pack of wolves there and an NPC here who will directly say "go fetch" and then "good boy", than actually trying to do some good storytelling.
