T-Smith on 3/3/2006 at 21:20

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Seriously. Playing through Thief: Gold for the first time ever (I've only previously played TDP), and looking back to Thief III, I realize the Keepers are a lot weaker then I'd previously thought.

I mean, it seems every time a group of Keepers go somewhere outside of their own territory, they wind up dead. The Lost City - all those that went there ended up dead. I can understand dying there (though for a group of highly trained, glyph weilding, stealth masters, they sure seemed useless against a couple fire elementals).

Next we've got the caverns underneath the opera house in Gold. Looking at the Keeper map for the place, it seems every time they went to another chamber of the caverns, two more Keepers dropped. Which was kind of amazing, since the caverns were small, dimly lit (making stealth easy) and had just a few tiny spiders and craymen walking around. Guess that's too much for the mighty Keepers to handle though.

Then in Thief III, we've got the Kurshok citadel. Keeper Rafe's first expedition there ended in the death of one Keeper - and when he went by himself, he ended up locking himself in a room after being spotted (guess he didn't have any decent glyph powers... or gas arrows... or flash bombs. I realize the last two are more thief-type weapons, but still, you'd figure a Keeper going into unknown territory 'swarming with strange creatures' would pack a few items to help him along.

Then there's the almighty Keeper Enforcers. Trained in all manners of stealth. At least, that's what the books in the Keeper library say. In reality they're about as stealthy as a Burrick walking through Auldale, magically screaming "LOOK AT ME, I'M HIDING! *Gas burp*"

So seriously, what's the deal? Is your average Keeper really just a riddle talking cloaked dimwit, with an understanding of glyphs and survival skills on par with Kenny from South Park? Or are they really amazing, and Garrett's just so far above them in terms of stealth skills that they look pathetic next to him?

Dia on 6/3/2006 at 16:14

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Because he's so much better at it than they are! After all, he is Garrett!

T-Smith on 7/3/2006 at 02:08

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For song of caverns - the map you have was made during the Keeper's building of the sanctuary for the talisman. I don't see why they would write down on the map when they came across bodies of other dead people - I thought the writing on the map made it clear that they were all Keepers that died.

For Rafe - I don't really see how Gamall would have had anything to do with that. Unless she somehow tipped off the Kurshok that Rafe and his team were down there. The second time when Rafe went by himself, he mentions his his journal it was his own mistake that ended up screwing him over. He also mentions his suspicion of why the council declined him a team on his second journey - because they didn't want Rafe to find the glyph key.

Lord Dalar on 17/5/2006 at 09:19

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Shoshin, you're right they come to free Garret in costantine's garden, but where do they disappear? and please, can you tell me why the hell do one has to cross the whole dungeon to arrive at costantine's mansion when you have at the starting position right behind you the doors to costantine's garden? I mean, in the mission the sword I got in there i had the key, i can admitt that Garret could not imagine what was going to happen and he left it back home or wherever he leaves the keys of hoses he broke in, but where do the keepers disappear? and most of all where do they come from? and why don't they leave the door open, or at least fight some of the beasts that overfill the level? have they become that sneacky silent and invisible?

Me too is laughing every time I read again a book of so many keepers diyng in such stupid way, or they walk unarmed and count only on their stealth skills and the first minispider can kill them, 'cause they have no weapon (:sweat: Very unusual in that world) or there were hordes of spiders and millions of craymen whose corpses don't lie around 'cause it's going to make our computers explode...Maybe the caverns are simplified because it's not the level the designers wanted us to play, but the opera House, so it's just evocative to let us belive we went through the caverns...I don' t know, this are just suppositions.

One think I tell you, in eight years of thief no one can beat the hammers, simply the most interesting group in thief's world, the keepers are evocative, not effective, and as much as i like them, it's more the Idea of them than what I really have found in the game to make them fascinating

Holywhippet on 17/5/2006 at 23:37

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In short, yes. They are Keepers, not the marine corps. They sneak in to rescue Garrett then sneak out again.

You speak as though there are a legion of Keepers lying dead around the place. There aren't that many really. A few die in the undeground city because the fire elementals get stirred up due to the glyph of fire being brought in. One died under the opera house because he was afraid of drowning. The one who died investigating the Kurshok wouldn't have died if he had backup.