nicked on 26/11/2007 at 13:22
I think the way to look at it is this:
If you were able to remake T1 & T2 missions in TDS, with updated graphics, but exactly the same layout, they'd still be great missions.
If you remade the TDS missions in T1 or 2, they'd feel sub-par. Thief 1 & 2 missions were designed to resemble real places with real functions as much as possible, and the gameplay came through that automatically.
Whereas TDS missions seem to have been designed as a series of puzzles and gameplay challenges, wrapped up in the appearance of a real place. Sadly, this means the TDS levels feel slightly unrealistic and so don't drag you in as much.
Goldmoon Dawn on 26/11/2007 at 13:28
When the game designers sat down to make Missions for Thief I, they had all the freedom they needed engine-wise to make their Missions come to life. Imagine the mindset one must have had, when Thief III was on the line and you were responsible for the Missions, knowing that your engine and toolset were flawed. They certainly did the best they could, but they prolly shouldn't have put the Thief name on it.
SubJeff on 26/11/2007 at 13:33
Quote Posted by nicked
I think the way to look at it is this:
If you were able to remake T1 & T2 missions in TDS, with updated graphics, but exactly the same layout, they'd still be great missions.
If you remade the TDS missions in T1 or 2, they'd feel sub-par. Thief 1 & 2 missions were designed to resemble real places with real functions as much as possible, and the gameplay came through that automatically.
I disagree. T1 and 2 have better gameplay mechanics. It's all messed up in TDS. In fact the TDS engine restrictions would ruin some of the T1 and 2 missions.
Beleg Cúthalion on 26/11/2007 at 19:32
Even if it was possible (I could imagine some of the mansion missions) most people would probably dislike it just because it looks like TDS and TDS is eeeevil. I think one of the biggest mistakes was to look so hard for TDS's shortcomings that even now no one is able to ignore them just for playing purpose. I've never seen someone complaining about AIs leaning through wooden doors, walking like Quasimodo when they're looking for someone (but robot-like behaviour in TDS) or the simply designed stone walls indicating streets of a city like in Assassins or Ambush (but the somehow unnatural architecture in TDS).
In T3 the atmosphere for me was rather created by images while it was the plot in T1/T2 (as far as I can remember), although moving through the Keeper Compound in TDS had a similar feeling of subtle threat.
Goldmoon Dawn on 26/11/2007 at 19:40
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Even if it was possible most people would probably dislike it just because it looks like TDS and TDS is eeeevil.
Ack!
You did not hear Subjective?
Ya, real neat. Bafford's Mansion without a well... It should be easily apparent at this point why there would be complaints... Will the comparisons between The Dark Project (applause) and Deadly Shadow never cease?!?!
demagogue on 26/11/2007 at 20:48
Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall
They had it right the first time.
Yeah, it's a steady progression from story & plot -> M.O. -> setting being the creative focus, from the core to the surface. You can almost hear the comments in the brainstorm sessions. That could be a commentary on what's so annoying about contemporary storytelling in so many games, movies, and tv, really.
On that note, it struck me how much of TDS was defined by literal "icons" on a map, TMA by some of the bizarre ways you're expected to sneak that aren't so burglary related, and TDP by just seeming so fueled on pure inspiration of this whole arc; where the gameplay might have missed at points, the spirit of the thing kept trudging inexorably on.
ionia23 on 26/11/2007 at 21:01
What i would love to see is a Thief conversion pack, porting all the missions from Thief Gold, Thief Deadly Shadows to the new engine.
And if the dev's were feeling REALLY ambitious, purchase the licensing for Thief 2X and release that with the new engine.
SubJeff on 27/11/2007 at 02:42
What new engine is this then?
Winter Cat on 27/11/2007 at 07:21
I think T3 missions isn't comparable with T1 and T2 ones as they can't be repeated on T3 engine. Thief 3 doesn't support ropes, swimmable water and doesn't allow to build huge levels such as Bonehoard or Assassins. I really was very frustrated with those loading zones which crash very frequently while teleporting. System Shock 2 also uses loading zones, but it doesn't have limitation on level size.
nicked on 27/11/2007 at 07:58
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I disagree. T1 and 2 have better gameplay mechanics. It's all messed up in TDS. In fact the TDS engine restrictions would ruin some of the T1 and 2 missions.
Just to expand on my point, I meant that the missions would be remade with water and rope arrows and everything. Purely hypothetical, I know it's impossible, I was just trying to suggest that the engine flaws are not the whole problem. While they are annoying, the level design would be bad even without them.
