Are you a liar? - TTLG Forums

Fingernail on 27/9/2011 at 08:04

There's also a difference between telling the truth and full disclosure - just because you don't tell everyone (or anyone) all of your innermost thoughts or truths doesn't mean you're lying per se, it's just control of your social image.

Personally, I know when a lie I've told or a truth I've not disclosed is making me feel bad enough - and often this results from fear of damaging a friendship, plus the added complexity you give yourself if you have to spin more bullshit to cover your tracks, or be ultra careful not to reveal whatever it was - and I realise that it's better for everyone involved, myself and my friends to get the truth out there. You get to the point where the damage you're doing to yourself and your relationships feels worse than the thing you did originally.

But then, I can only think of examples where I've evaded something that would cause me embarrassment, so it's not really major stuff. I can't begin to imagine the feelings behind hiding an affair or something genuinely serious; if I lie it's just to make myself look better, polish up events depending on the audience. Of course, I worry that even that could one day lead to a rationalisation of lying about bigger stuff - but I think I'd have to not care at all about the people involved, let alone myself, to keep it up.

Scots Taffer on 27/9/2011 at 09:46

Quote Posted by Syndy/3

Lying is a social necessity. It's the glue that keeps society together. If everyone told everyone the truth all the time we wouldn't even have gotten out of our caves yet.

I'm kind of with this; primarily because isn't "truth" or "honesty" pretty damn subjective?

st.patrick on 27/9/2011 at 11:25

I'm kinda split on the matter; I prefer not to lie on account of not having to remember the extra stuff I fabricated, but on the other hand, I don't consider merely not saying things that'd hurt somebody as being dishonest.

Dia on 27/9/2011 at 12:48

Yes.

Usually under extenuating circumstances.

Fingernail on 27/9/2011 at 13:19

Quote Posted by Scots Taffer

I'm kind of with this; primarily because isn't "truth" or "honesty" pretty damn subjective?

Of course it is, but lying is hiding or telling something other than what you subjectively believe is true.

demagogue on 27/9/2011 at 13:37

I have a way of thinking about lying, but it fits in with the way I think about truth & language & utility generally (from my first life in philosophy & cogsci), which would need a "big post".

Well, a short version. I like theories that focus as much on "meaning" as "truth". Meaning is the function of a speech act (to the brain making it) given the full situation in which is was made. (Truth is usually some correspondence theory; you're positing some situation, and it's "true" when it corresponds to some objective situation everybody can recognize.)

So lying boils down to: a person says "X" when they mean "Y" (sometimes the listener knows the speaker really means Y; sometimes the listener thinks he means X; sometimes the listener suspects he doesn't really mean X but he doesn't know the speaker's real meaning. Each case has its own logic.). Long story short, the way I think about language, I don't think it's like casting a spell that has some magic effect, like I say "the sky is green" and it casts a spell and some part of the universe rends in two because the sky is actually blue: That's a LIE!

I think it's better to look at the meaning, all things considered. When people explain "Lying is bad because..." because it disrespects the listener or "the truth", or social relations would fall apart, the cost isn't worth the benefit, or it's suburban "respectability" in its bad form, etc., those are all part of the full meaning, as are the positive reasons: it was the polite thing to say, I had to say it, it didn't hurt anyone. I think you should look directly to those reasons. Are you really disrespecting the listener? Are there other things at stake that make the bending necessary?

I don't like to think in terms of that's a "good lie" or a "bad lie" so much as, that means "you're very diplomatic", or "very loyal", or "an asshole", or "a social predator". Just go straight to the punchline. It's not the words themselves; it's the meaning of the situation.

Edit: Like the "asshole" brand of lying, petty things you say to get a quick 1-up on someone, and later you flash the troll-smile at them when they learn the truth & have that mopey "you fucker" face, but they're half laughing themselves because it's a kind of running game you have that reaffirms your friendship... It's not a serious moral failing because the stakes were negligible; it just means you were an asshole, and even then asshole really means friend that got me. It's on an entirely different moral order from a social predator, a conman that's preying off the vulnerabilities of others to suck them dry and you mean them real harm. There's just no sense in even suggesting those two examples might be in the same moral category, another reason I don't even like setting up "lying" as the moral category we're supposed to look at, and I'd rather get to the actual concrete punchline of what's going on in the situation.

Vasquez on 27/9/2011 at 14:11

Quote Posted by Scots Taffer

primarily because isn't "truth" or "honesty" pretty damn subjective?

Not always. Questions like "Did you fuck her/him?", "Did you steal this car?", "Have you been drinking today?" etc. can have an objectively truthful answer, either "Yes" or "No".

Lytha on 27/9/2011 at 16:54

I tend to be extremely blunt and I don't like the queasy feeling in the stomach when you lie, so I don't do it.

In the hospital, I got along fine with the various roommates by not saying anything when I was annoyed by something (such as: the cancer grannies having a go at the black nurse for being black: "he could give you some colour and both of you would look better" - wtf??) This strategy did not do well with the histrionic borderliner (ex?-)drug addict though. She started to love me too much.

So, not a liar, but avoiding conflicts by using silence sometimes.

CCCToad on 27/9/2011 at 17:29

Pathologically, especially when out and about. Spinning a tall tale is just so much fun

Quote Posted by st.patrick

One of the shows I'm watching had some very solid advice about that: When telling a lie, its easier to alter truth than to fabricate it.

Mr.Duck on 27/9/2011 at 18:01

In a purist sense, yes. Like everyone else (with the very very very veeery rare exceptions) on the Planet.

I consider myself a person tha tells lies sporadically (mostly of the to-get-you-off-my-back white lie category), but not a liar in the extreme/pathological sense. And I rarely am a hypochrite (save for the neccesity of not causing unwanted ruckus). I'd rather say something nice that is true than something nice which is a lie, and all of my friends know this. Thus, if I have nothing nice to say I disagree in the most polite way possible. I am only blunt in telling the truth when I know the context of the situation/person helps.

Most of the time I just keep it to myself. Saves me trouble.