Yakoob on 28/9/2011 at 05:56
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
"Liars share with those they deceive the desire to desire not to
be deceived. As a result, their choice to lie is one which they would like to reserve for themselves while insisting that others be honest. They would prefer, in other words, a "free-rider" status, giving them the benefits of lying without the risk of being lied to...."
I would counter argue this. I used to be far more honest when I was younger, but I began lying more *because* I was being lied to. It's kind of a "once you're in the game you have to play by the rules."
Let me give you an allegory of me coming to India - no one here follows traffic laws, its a big free-for all (i've even seen cars going against traffic a few times). What's the point of me following the traffic laws, then? I am only shooting myself in the foot with no benefit.
Now, if everyone simultaneously started following traffic, things would go MUCH more smoothly for *everyone*. It would be a much more beneficial scenario. But how do you convince 1 billion people to simultaneously drop their old beliefs and take on a new way? It's not something you can really phase in gradually; either everyone does it, or those few who choose to, get screwed over...
Forever420 on 28/9/2011 at 07:15
only to coppers do I lie.
Sulphur on 28/9/2011 at 08:29
Quote Posted by Yakoob
Let me give you an allegory of me coming to India - no one here follows traffic laws, its a big free-for all (i've even seen cars going against traffic a few times). What's the point of me following the traffic laws, then? I am only shooting myself in the foot with no benefit.
Now, if everyone simultaneously started following traffic, things would go MUCH more smoothly for *everyone*. It would be a much more beneficial scenario. But how do you convince 1 billion people to simultaneously drop their old beliefs and take on a new way? It's not something you can really phase in gradually; either everyone does it, or those few who choose to, get screwed over...
Ah, you've experienced our little pocket of anarchy. Of course we follow traffic laws. They just happen to be our own.
Yakoob on 28/9/2011 at 09:30
Kind of like I follow ethics; they're just my ethics ;)
EDIT: Also I didnt know you are indian sulph; where you at? Im currently in Delhi.
demagogue on 28/9/2011 at 13:54
Quote Posted by Yakoob
I would counter argue this. I used to be far more honest when I was younger, but I began lying more *because* I was being lied to. It's kind of a "once you're in the game you have to play by the rules."
...
Now, if everyone simultaneously started following traffic, things would go MUCH more smoothly for *everyone*. It would be a much more beneficial scenario. But how do you convince 1 billion people to simultaneously drop their old beliefs and take on a new way? It's not something you can really phase in gradually; either everyone does it, or those few who choose to, get screwed over...
The way you describe it here, this is classic Game Theory & Nash equilibria at play.
I should have mentioned it before because it's the best natural way to explain lying (I've read), and this is how they explain animal deception (which humans share, but we have an extra layer of "culture" which complicates everything).
The starting assumption is that you have to coordinate action with other people; you don't always know 100% how other people are going to react to your move, so you try to pick the best strategy for what you predict they're going to do, usually based on their history. When you pick a strategy that, if you changed it any you would only lose utility, that sets up an equilibrium; you're going to stay with that strategy until something changes the situation (like the costs & payoffs). That's Nash's equilibrium equation. Play it out, and everybody follows that general rule.
Anyway, then that sets up the classic prisoner's dilemma & free rider situation. You could set it up with the 2x2 chart of A & B's strategy (truth/truth, truth/lie, lie/truth, lie/lie) with utility payoff for each box; pick different numbers and the equilibrium strategy changes (if you're protected most lying 10% of the time or 50%). Another wrinkle in the theory are that there are major and minor equilibria. The typical major equilibrium (highest payoff to everyone) is everybody tells the truth, and benefits from the extra information. The typical minor equilibrium is tit-for-tat, I respond in kind to what you do; if you are truthful I'm truthful; if you lie I lie.
So without any credible barrier to stop lying, some people could take advantage of the major equilibrium situation and free ride on everybody else telling the truth, they themselves lie, they get a big boost, and everybody else gets a big harm. So then some people have to "lie" to protect themselves from others that might abuse their truthfulness. Play that out across the whole group, and it leads to a minor equilibrium (if you changed it, you'd only hurt yourself, but it's not the highest payoff for everyone possible) like tit-for-tat, most people tell truth most of the time, but lie when it protects something they care about or gives them a boost without cost on others; it's more utility than everybody lying, but not as much as everyone telling the truth.
If you wanted everyone to naturally go to the highest equilibrium, you can only change the situation if you set it up so that it costs more to lie than the benefit you get from lying, like an agreement we make together to punish free riding liars. But this is only a good rule if the lying is high stakes, and we do have laws like this for commercial transactions & other things like misrepresentation, fraud, libel, etc. (The theory is good for designing laws. It's always better to set up a situation where people naturally fall into the right behavior as an equilibrium strategy than to just "tell" them what to do.) For lower-stakes day to day stuff, though, a rule like that would probably cause more harm than it helps since it'd be prone to abuse (deceptively calling someone a "liar"). But it wouldn't take much, maybe that disappointed look your gf or mother gives you when you lie, haha. That would be part of the theory too.
Sulphur on 28/9/2011 at 20:45
Quote Posted by Yakoob
EDIT: Also I didnt know you are indian sulph; where you at? Im currently in Delhi.
Bangalore, duder. A bit of a ways down south from where you're at. Hope the heat ain't killing you yet.
Forever420 on 29/9/2011 at 01:20
Quote Posted by frozenman
Does this discussion count when you lie to yourself? I'd like to hear a person say they don't do that.
LoL for me those lies work like they do for Pinocchioto, cept its mah penis 'stead o my nose.
Shug on 29/9/2011 at 02:43
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
Syndy: We DON'T all lie all the time. I mean, I don't know what you mean by "lying" - but by my own understanding/definition of the word, I lie about once a year.
I think what you mean is that you produce a deliberate, manipulating falsehood point blank to somebody rarely.
People lie constantly; you lie to yourself (worldview, personal image, ego, prejudices, religious belief), you twist your words to reflect better on your own actions to other people, and you rationalise antisocial or negative/addictive activities.
That's fine. It's ridiculous to think somebody could even operate under a level of outright honesty. It would probably cripple many people mentally just to accept the reality of their own lives.
I think it's a valuable social ability to be able to adopt different roles or realities depending on who you're interacting with. Actually speaking my mind about everything is a foolish way to enter discussions, but I have no problem speaking honestly with people who request or demand that sort of connection, of which I am lucky to know a number.
Also, just shooting straight to your boss isn't some kind of litmus test for moral integrity. Just because you aren't kissing arse doesn't mean you aren't lying or capable of lying in situations - which is immaterial to your integrity as a human. Your interactions with workmates, particularly superiors, are generally guided by different rules than personal relationships and that's a useful thing.
Quote Posted by demagogue
It's like I want to validate that I had that plan and everything was ready and just some little detail came up that complicated it, so it's not the same as somebody that just didn't think of doing it at all.
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543&p=2021904&viewfull=1#post2021904) Story checks out ;)
Yakoob on 29/9/2011 at 04:14
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Bangalore, duder. A bit of a ways down south from where you're at. Hope the heat ain't killing you yet.
Haha I just went on a 3hr walk around my neighborhood and India Gate. It's actually not that bad; I used to live in Arizona for some three years. Arizona is like... well imagine India. But there's no trees. And all the buildings are 100 feet apart and max 2 stories tall. No shade, ever. Here, at least, if you walk by the side of the street, there's plenty of stuff to keep you out of sun's direct harm ;)
