Artifacts, again. And the Builder. - by TuttiFrutti
TuttiFrutti on 17/3/2006 at 19:52
I've got a question that kept nagging at and even made me register. As you can guess from the title, it concerns our lovely sentients. To make it short, we know that they are conscious and have a will of their own. And if you think about it, they are quite malevolent entities. The Eye is not a nice one to talk with and likes to resurrect the dead, the Heart kills it`s possessors, the Chalice does the same to everyone who drinks from it, regardless of religion and the Paw requires a blood sacrifice to be acquired (it has to be offered to the tree it's residing in, but there were quite some corpses lying around in it's caves). This open's up some questions, the most interesting refering to the Chalice.
For example, if we suppose it was really given to the Hammerites by the Builder, wouldn't that mean he's an evil deity? Hammerites are fanatics and seldom show mercy to anyone. Most of their prayers include someone being executed or punished in a gruesome way and they are extremely arrogant (for example, in St. Edgar's Church, two of them were talking about Inspector Drept and how there was no work for him within their order as they were all most rigtheous). And then they are given the Chalice. Could it be possible that they were manipulated by it to become this way or was it just a cruel joke of the Builder, since it even kills his own followers? Or does the Chalice do so because it enjoys taking lifes? If the Builder was good instead, would he allow the Chalice to exist? Maybe as some crazy method of testing a Hammerite's devotion (well, then everyone would have failed so far)?
Even if we argue that the artifacts weren't sentient from the beginning but imbued with conscience by the Beepers at some later point, would the Builder from then on tolerate this 'desecration' of his chalice? Probably not, so maybe he doesn't even exist?
T-Smith on 17/3/2006 at 20:28
Spoilers, obviously:
How the artifacts became sentient is unknown - we know the First Keepers used them as keys for the Final Glyph, but we don't know if the Keepers gave them Sentient powers, or if they even made them at all.
The only artifact that has traceable origins in the Jacknall's Paw. It's the severed hand of Gruliac, the Kurshok King who angered the Trickster, causing the slow downfall of the Kurshok race. Ironically, Gruliac was driven to betray The Trickster by a gift The Trickster gave to him - The Crown. So right there, we have another example of a Sentient Artifact corrupting.
Also, this implies that not all the artifacts were created at the same time, nor by the same people (which brings me to the conclusion that the First Keepers merely used the artifacts in their present states, they didn't actually alter them in any way).
For the Chalice, we're unsure of anything besides the fact that Saint Edgar used it, but it's likely he wasn't the original owner. I don't think it's ever mentioned that 'The Builder' gave him the Chalice, though I could be mistaken.
The Eye and The Heart are the oldest of the artifacts. The Eye comments on this, saying that the other artifacts (The Crown, Paw, and Chalice) have not yet gained the ability to speak (unlike The Eye and The Heart, both of which talk). Still, nothing's really known about their origins either.
ZeroFlight on 17/3/2006 at 22:33
Through the texts in Gamal's layer, I figured that the artifacts were created by those first keepers who discovered the glyph of undoing (or whatever it was called). I took it to mean they somehow imbued these objects with their souls. I also figured that the objects themselves had been around awhile (we have no sense of time in the game) but possibly without powers and the keepers chose them since they were important relics and would be around a long time.
I'm guessing that at some point, one of the high prests decided his order needed a relic so he picked St. Edgars personal chalice and called it the Builder's Chalice and made a rite of drinking out of it causing death. I'm guessing the keeper later imbued it thus exerting some control over it, seemingly giving it powers. The same with the other relics.
I don't think it really says anything about the Builder one way or another. I don't think the chalice was designed specifically to kill. I also figure if it was desecrated as you say, the Builder would allow it since its new purpose is to maintain the balance of life and avoid the pitfalls humanity would make.
T-Smith on 17/3/2006 at 23:02
Quote Posted by ZeroFlight
Through the texts in Gamal's layer, I figured that the artifacts were created by those first keepers who discovered the glyph of undoing (or whatever it was called). I took it to mean they somehow imbued these objects with their souls. I also figured that the objects themselves had been around awhile (we have no sense of time in the game) but possibly without powers and the keepers chose them since they were important relics and would be around a long time.
The glyph you're talking about is the Glyph of Unbinding. We have no idea who discovered that.
The glyph you're TALKING about is the Glyph of Transmutation, discovered by 4 Keepers (Daegar, Somersault, Vandolyn, and Gamall) hundreds of years prior to the Thief series.
You seem to be confusing the Glyph of Transmutation with the Final Glyph. According to Gamall's research, the First Keepers were around when The City was first formed - a VERY long time before the Transmutation Glyph was found. Also, it was the First Keepers who made the Final Glyph and created the fail safe, so they would have been the ones to 'create' the artifacts (if the artifacts were made by Keepers).
Quote:
I'm guessing that at some point, one of the high prests decided his order needed a relic so he picked St. Edgars personal chalice and called it the Builder's Chalice and made a rite of drinking out of it causing death. I'm guessing the keeper later imbued it thus exerting some control over it, seemingly giving it powers. The same with the other relics.
The Chalice had powers back in St. Edgar's time. In a book in St. Edgar's, it's mentioned that on the battlefield he made Pagans drink from the cup, and it caused them to burst into flames. I'm still against the idea of it having been the Keepers who bestowed 'powers' upon the artifacts.
Cardel on 18/3/2006 at 09:10
Well, the flames may just be a ledgend?
T-Smith on 18/3/2006 at 18:12
Quote Posted by Cardel
Well, the flames may just be a ledgend?
They could be. However, in a conversation in St. Edgar's, it's mentioned that the last time the Chalice was used was 50 years ago, but Master Forger Alabus - and when he drank from it, he too burst into flames.
Cardel on 19/3/2006 at 09:11
Just to provide an argument, perhaps that was ledgend as well? and that someone just decided "hey, hes not good enough... muahahahahahah!" however, this isnt particullarly good.
Also, a possible theory is that it wasnt enchanted by the builder but by some high priest or even Mr Edgar himself so that he could claim he had found something holy and become a saint...
Okay, though the second part is kinda unlikely, the bit about it being enchanted by a priest is probable as well.
But then again, if the Trickster can exist, why not the builder?
Holywhippet on 23/3/2006 at 00:12
My long running thought on the sentients is that the original founders of the Keeper order were very, very advanced users of glyph magic. They realised however that some of the glyphs were too powerful to be left freely available to other Keepers who would follow. Chances are they even foresaw the future and the coming of Gamall.
They needed a failsafe, a way of shutting off the glyphs they'd made in the event of someone abusing them. They placed the landmarks which were to be part of the final glyph when the sentients were placed in them. They then acquired five items which would be used to trigger the failsafe: The eye, the Jacknall's Paw, the Heart, the Crown and the Chalice. Some of these may already have had certain powers.
Into each of these items they placed the power to trigger the final glyph. They also gave them a certain amount of ability to influence the world around them and the possibility to think for themselves. They then sent these items back into the world, into the hands of the various groups around the city knowing they would be kept safe and seperate. The sentients themselves would make sure that nobody would be able to use them before it was time.
For some reason, only the Eye became truly sentient - or at least able to speak aloud. I get the impression that the others would become sentient in the future.
Because of their powers, it's possible the sentients were regarded as holy artifacts by the various groups that had them - religious types being likely to claim that an item of power must be a gift from their god. It's also possible the Keepers spread rumours about their powers in order to make sure they would be well guarded.
T-Smith on 23/3/2006 at 00:39
Quote Posted by Holywhippet
For some reason, only the Eye became truly sentient - or at least able to speak aloud. I get the impression that the others would become sentient in the future.
All of the artifacts are 'truely sentient'. The Eye was simply the first to learn how to speak, and The Eye mentions that in time the others will too.
A note though - The Heart can talk as well.
Cardel on 23/3/2006 at 19:48
Hmm, I have never heard the heart's voice, only the hoarse whisper of the eye. What do you do to get her to speak?
