Hidden_7 on 17/11/2007 at 02:27

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Is that a threat?

Seriously, I have no idea what you mean by that talent comment. Are you saying Assassin's Creed is so awful that if someone actually got a job based on their credentials then gaming is dead or... what? Do personally know how talented Jade Raymond is, do you know her personally, and you're saying that jeez, if she got hired for her talent then gaming must be in trouble because they are hiring such talentless hacks... or...?

I mean, don't you want people to get jobs based on their talent? That's generally a sign that things are working properly. Even if she had no talent, and got hired for say, her looks, she's still working the same job, so the product suffers just as much, only in this situation the people in charge are hiring people for terrible, arbitrary reasons. At least if they hired her for her talent and she was bad then they had the right idea, they just kinda couldn't execute us.

Pray enlighten us what you meant by that comment, I know I for one am just all sorts of confused.

Also, anyone else played the game? Comments on the actual topic, or anything like that?

june gloom on 17/11/2007 at 06:20

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Whoa! Threat?! Where the hell did you get THAT from? I'm saying I can attack Jade and I damn well am going to.

First of all, the "you don't know her personally, don't attack her!" thing is horseshit and I reject horseshit. I don't know Lars Ulrich, but I can tell you the man is a shitty drummer (and kind of an asshole, at that.)

So why do I call Jade a talentless whore? Because she's merely a producer who spends way more time on camera than necessary, because some people think she's attractive. She hasn't actually programmed anything of note that I can dig up. She doesn't make anything. She's a project leader, sure, and the project turned out okay, but how much of that is dependant on her and how much of it is dependant on the team working well together? Judging by how much face time she gets, I would say it's mostly the team. Much of what she says on camera, as well, is sugar-coated crap. It sounds like a brochure. That's not saying that other producers and PR types haven't made themselves sound like brainless advertisements, but seriously, have they done it as much as Jade?

You completely misread what I said. I do want people to get hired for their talent. What I said, and what you misunderstood, was that Jade has no talent, and if they really hired her because they thought she had talent, then gaming is dead. That said, I think they hired her because she was pretty, not for her talent. (Well, moderately.)

Hidden_7 on 17/11/2007 at 10:14

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I'm not saying you need to know her personally to attack her, it just seems like it would be hard to judge how much talent she DID have if you didn't know her personally, because of what a team effort game design is. It's hard to look at a game and be like "there, right there, THAT guy who does art resources fucking sucks, man fuck that guy."

You said it yourself, the PR face she puts out there makes it impossible to tell whether she has actual talent or not. The project, in my opinion, turned out pretty great, but was that her, was that other team leaders, was that a great team, who knows? You can't really tell how good she is at her job from what we've seen, since, as we've agreed I think, it doesn't speak to it all.

So it's kinda a judgement call on our parts what to think of her. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, and gonna assume that she's probably alright at the job title she gets paid for, you're going the opposite way and calling her a no talent hack. Niether one of us really has much evidence to back up our assumptions, so I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

Also, Koki, wouldn't your annoyance at threads about a game descending into fapfests over it's somewhat cute project lead urge you to avoid turning the same discussions into hate-fests responding to that trend? It seems like this isn't really different in kind.

Gambit on 17/11/2007 at 11:39

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That means that a beautiful girl can´t promote a game or speak about a game because it would be using her looks instead of her knowledge ?
I would be more tempted to believe that if she was wearing a bikini or speaking with a soft, luxurious voice...

And I don´t see the same kind of attack when a handsome programmer speaks about his game. Ok, most of them are ugly anyway...

-----------------------------------------------

To those who played the game:

How the social sneaking vs acrobatics is balanced ?
Can you kill a target without getting caught by anyone else ? Only using disguises and avoiding suspicion ?
Can you kill the target by running like crazy during the entire level ?

Muzman on 17/11/2007 at 13:05

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If you add up the amount of interview time made available to Jade Raymond, Ken Levine, Gabe Newell, Cliffy B and some Halo guy whose name escapes me over, say, the 12 months before their respective games came out I'd be willing to bet Raymond comes in equal or actually less than the others (particularly Ciffy B and Ken actually). If she got more play it's entirely down to the press (unsurprisingly) finding her a more interesting subject than a lot of fat old nerds. If someone could explain to me how that's her fault I'd like to hear it. I know what you're going to say; those guys have a track record and yeah it's an easy fit - get the photogenic girl who's been on TV and can talk to do the PR about the game she's in charge of. Congratulations on seeing through this insidious marketing conspiracy.
Here's the thing though, to bring up some pertinent LG examples, did anyone question Steve Pearsal's credentials as a creative to run Thief 2? No, not a word, despite the fact that he's not a programmer or a creative but a manager first and foremost (leaving myself wide open for "Yeah, and look how Thief 2 turned out!" I'm sure). Or Lulu LaMer being a producer on Thief: DS; OMG she was only head of QA before that! These filthy women and their wiles can get anywhere in this business, because its populated by weak and desperate fools. Well they won't get me! No Sir!
Seriously, if you didn't, as we did, seek out every damn word Ken Levine had to say about Bioshock in every outlet there was and just stuck to the mainstream soundbyte media you'd swear he was just as full of hot and slightly tangy marketing air (and, And, he's only a writer! An "Ideas man". What does he know about game design?! That John Chey did all the work, I'll bet).
It's one thing to suspect that, yeah she's cute and that's no doubt a factor in her prominence. It's something of a leap to get to loudly, publicly, repeatedly crying 'she's a no talent skank and a whore who got everything because she blew the right people' and much of the net send up saying. Ask yourselves, fellas, how many conceptual steps it took to get from A to B (never mind that you can't actually get to B via any rationality at all); 1 step? No steps? Then you're fucked up. I don't give a shit what Maxim says. There's something seriously wrong with you. Get help.