Before I would even THINK about buying thief 4 ... - by webe123
webe123 on 14/8/2011 at 04:45
It would have to have THREE things.
1. ROPE ARROWS.... those idiotic climbing gloves just did not make it like a thief game in my opinion.
2. WATER To SWIM IN! This is another aspect left out in thief deadly shadows that made it not like thief as the earlier thief 1 and 2 games.
3. NO STUPID, IDIOTIC LOADING SCREENS!!!!!!!
This is a MUST! If I am going to play thief, I do not want to see a hint of a loading screen!
It ruined Thief Deadly Shadows for me on the PC.
I do hope the overall atmosphere reverts back more to the Thief 1 and 2 games rather than the Deadly Shadows look. I just never accepted that look for thief. Though I will say that "the cradle" was one of the best and scariest missions I have ever played in the thief universe. I hope they include more "cradle" like missions in this new game.
Koki on 14/8/2011 at 08:53
It would also need to have at least ten exclamation marks!!!!!
zachary1975 on 14/8/2011 at 13:19
Quote Posted by Koki
It would also need to have at least ten exclamation marks!!!!!
ten exclamation marks on what?
SubJeff on 14/8/2011 at 13:45
Seriously?
Ffs
Erand on 14/8/2011 at 13:49
I'm afraid TDP/TMA -style rope arrows can be very difficult to implement since T4 is almost certainly going to have a 3rd person camera option, perhaps even as default. Making rope climbing look good without making the climbing itself painfully clunky and restricted (due to the restraints relating to character animation) is a very difficult task. Imagine what it would look like from the outside if the player very quickly turned around 360° whilst climbing up, simultaneously tilting his view up and down, and then jumping away from the rope, like in TDP/TMA. There are also other problems, such as when the player is climbing close to a wall, where would the camera go (without going crazy) when the player is facing away from the wall?
Indeed, when you think about it, it is not that unlikely that a third person view would be activated whenever the player is climbing, crouching behind come shadowy corners or performing a knockout or a back stab - games tend to be like that nowadays.
Of course, all these problems can be solved, but it might not be "worth the effort" design-wise. Then again, there is a chance that EM has notified what the fans hope and that rope arrows would be implemented. One solution could be to make the climbing a bit more restricted - and, one could argue, more realistic than what it was in the first two games.
The first two Thief -games have a very clever way to make rope arrows work - they attach to certain textures only. Generally speaking: whenever there is wood, a rope arrow can be used on it. It enables the player to use his/her creativity to find ways to proceed in manners even the level designers didn't think of. I hope the levels in T4 aren't going to be too linear and restricted, even the most exquisite routes already thought of by the level designers: "Achievement unlocked - The Clever Way In".
I know I'm going to purchase the next Thief almost no matter what, since it's still a Thief -game. Water is not that big of a big thing, usually the water-elements in games tend to suck in one way or another. Of course water could be used well, acting as a nice element, but that's not my primary concern. Loading zones (especially those dividing a level in two or more parts) probably won't be present since the consoles nowadays are powerful enough to provide huge environments. Partly due to the emergence of High Definition -resolutions, the GUI elements won't have to be that huge and "consoly" as they were in TDS.
However, there will probably be pop-up notifications of achievements/trophies with smart-ass names, downloadable content available for purchase and in the worst case scenario, self-regenerating health and an autosave function. A cynic could argue that a "big, commercial game" these days just cannot be anything like the first Thief-games, considering the general atmosphere surrounding gaming, the costs required to produce such a thing with up-to-standard graphics, and the fact that a game more in line with TDP/TMA, despite most likely getting praised by some critics and receiving a few hard-core fans who like to get "something else" out of gaming (deep immersion, sense of wonder, this somewhat anarchistic sensation of playing a "thief", the challenge of being totally alone in the hostile world, exploring endless mazes of caverns, constantly having to hide in the shadows...), it just wouldn't sell enough to be profitable.
So what I am the most afraid of, is the general approach - is it going to be more about being a cool character performing cool ninja-skillz in a naïve, demystifying storyline with superficial, unbelievable, too well-explained surroundings - or an immersive, almost mystical experience similar to TDP and TMA, with a lot of "irrelevant" readables and such things. How much does it rely on the player's own imagination and curiousness, how much the player is given hints, how well the consistency with the previous titles is maintained (hammerites, the general "feel" of the City etc.) and, well, does it give the player that "Thief-experience", or is it something completely different and/or more in line with what everyone expects these "medieval-style" games to be.
Too Much Coffee on 14/8/2011 at 17:25
^^^^^^^
The last thing we want to hear are more technical excuses, especially in 2011. "Boo hoo. Rope arrows are too hard for us to make." Taking the easy way out usually does not give better results when building anything; and customers will be the first to notice how cheap and unsatisfactory the results are.
Bottom line, if any developer does not feel it is capable of implementing or improving key features from an original, than it need not bother to even try developing a sequel. Do it right, or don't do it. Or just make a different game, just don't put Thief in the title.
Koki on 14/8/2011 at 20:15
Quote Posted by zachary1975
ten exclamation marks on what?
On enemy heads, obviously. When you're spotted.
lost_soul on 14/8/2011 at 20:48
For those who think rope arrows couldn't be done with third-person features, go ask Lara. Tomb Raider games have no problems making the player climb ropes and jump from them.
For me to buy this game, it will have to have:
A. Swimmable water
B. Rope arrows
C. missions equivalent to the Seaside Mansion and Shailbridge
D. No internet activation required. Let's face it, developers of Thief games have a history of not sticking around. Given this fact, I want to make sure my purchased copy of the game doesn't go anywhere.
Shadowhide on 15/8/2011 at 00:40
all of those have been mentioned 1000 times already....
webe123 on 15/8/2011 at 02:26
Quote Posted by Erand
I'm afraid TDP/TMA -style rope arrows can be very difficult to implement since T4 is almost certainly going to have a 3rd person camera option, perhaps even as default. Making rope climbing look good without making the climbing itself painfully clunky and restricted (due to the restraints relating to character animation) is a very difficult task. Imagine what it would look like from the outside if the player very quickly turned around 360° whilst climbing up, simultaneously tilting his view up and down, and then jumping away from the rope, like in TDP/TMA. There are also other problems, such as when the player is climbing close to a wall, where would the camera go (without going crazy) when the player is facing away from the wall?
WHY does thief 4 have to have a 3rd person camera at all? I never used it in TDS. It just seemed to make the game harder to play and I thought it was stupid.. They could certianly eliminate all of the difficulties with 3rd person if they would just LEAVE IT OUT! No reason to have it. Rope arrows would be a lot easier to make for the game then. But even if they decide to put in 3rd person, with todays technology, why could they not use it the way the original games did and just shoot it into wood? It seems to be creating a problem where there were none before.
Quote Posted by Erand
Indeed, when you think about it, it is not that unlikely that a third person view would be activated whenever the player is climbing, crouching behind come shadowy corners or performing a knockout or a back stab - games tend to be like that nowadays.
Again, why does it have to be that way? It certianly does not make the game any better in my opinion. Matter of fact, it makes it harder to "line up" a player right behind a guard when it is used for a blackjack move. Again, 3rd person seems to create problems where there really needs to not to be problems.
Quote Posted by Erand
Of course, all these problems can be solved, but it might not be "worth the effort" design-wise. Then again, there is a chance that EM has notified what the fans hope and that rope arrows would be implemented. One solution could be to make the climbing a bit more restricted - and, one could argue, more realistic than what it was in the first two games.
But if climbing had to be restricted, I wish they would either take out 3rd person or come up with a way they can use rope arrows in 3rd person view.
Quote Posted by Erand
The first two Thief -games have a very clever way to make rope arrows work - they attach to certain textures only. Generally speaking: whenever there is wood, a rope arrow can be used on it. It enables the player to use his/her creativity to find ways to proceed in manners even the level designers didn't think of. I hope the levels in T4 aren't going to be too linear and restricted, even the most exquisite routes already thought of by the level designers: "Achievement unlocked - The Clever Way In".
You seem to assume that somehow using rope arrows are either to hard toi make or restrictive. But I find the exact opposite with climbing gloves. It just felt very "unnatural" in theif deadly shadows.
Quote Posted by Erand
I know I'm going to purchase the next Thief almost no matter what, since it's still a Thief -game. Water is not that big of a big thing, usually the water-elements in games tend to suck in one way or another. Of course water could be used well, acting as a nice element, but that's not my primary concern. Loading zones (especially those dividing a level in two or more parts) probably won't be present since the consoles nowadays are powerful enough to provide huge environments. Partly due to the emergence of High Definition -resolutions, the GUI elements won't have to be that huge and "consoly" as they were in TDS.
Well water to you may not be that big of a thing, but in thief, it certianly does make a noticable difference when it is not there! At least to me. No underwater tunnels to explore, no sewers to come up out of. Makes for a boring game in my book. That is why I will wait to see if these three things are implimented before I buy.
Quote Posted by Erand
However, there will probably be pop-up notifications of achievements/trophies with smart-ass names, downloadable content available for purchase and in the worst case scenario, self-regenerating health and an autosave function. A cynic could argue that a "big, commercial game" these days just cannot be anything like the first Thief-games, considering the general atmosphere surrounding gaming, the costs required to produce such a thing with up-to-standard graphics, and the fact that a game more in line with TDP/TMA, despite most likely getting praised by some critics and receiving a few hard-core fans who like to get "something else" out of gaming (deep immersion, sense of wonder, this somewhat anarchistic sensation of playing a "thief", the challenge of being totally alone in the hostile world, exploring endless mazes of caverns, constantly having to hide in the shadows...), it just wouldn't sell enough to be profitable.
I HOPE they do not make this game like Just cause 2, where you BUY things for the game off the net in some stupid store...with actual money! The way I look at it, is that I just purchased the game for 50 bucks and you want to milk me for more? They can stuff that where the sun does not shine! Sorry, but I am not a big fan of having to purchase extra things for a game they sell for fifty bucks. Is it too much to ask that all that be included? I don't think so!
Quote Posted by Erand
So what I am the most afraid of, is the general approach - is it going to be more about being a cool character performing cool ninja-skillz in a naïve, demystifying storyline with superficial, unbelievable, too well-explained surroundings - or an immersive, almost mystical experience similar to TDP and TMA, with a lot of "irrelevant" readables and such things. How much does it rely on the player's own imagination and curiousness, how much the player is given hints, how well the consistency with the previous titles is maintained (hammerites, the general "feel" of the City etc.) and, well, does it give the player that "Thief-experience", or is it something completely different and/or more in line with what everyone expects these "medieval-style" games to be.
What I am afraid of, is that this is going to be a warmed over "thief deadly shadows". No thanks! Been there done that. I only played that game through ONCE! I never did want to play it again, even though it had a great level called "the cradle" which I think is one of the scariest thief levels of all time.
But the game itself, with no rope arrows, no water to swim in and the idiotic, clunky, loading screens made it into a one time playable game for me. I went back to thief 2 as soon as I could and started playing fan missions for thief 2 again.
So if that is all this new game has to offer, as I said count me out. Time will tell if they make a better or worse game because of the new technology and unfettered greed wanting to sell to consoles. If it is anything like that last time, I will probably wait and buy it for 5 bucks at a bargain bin somewhere. I certianly will NOT pay 50 bucks for a thief game I am only playing through one time, I can tell you that.
OH and I need to add a fourth reason I would not buy it and it has already been mentioned. I will never EVER buy a game that is required to have an internet connection "always on" That is the stupidest, insulting thing I can think of that game developers have added to make it harder for people to play games. Do they really believe that it makes it harder for pirates to steal a game?
If some companies think that way, they need a lobotomy! The pirates just take out the DRM and play the stupid game. Meanwhile those who PAYED FOR THE GAME are the ones who get burned when they have a hickup in their internet connection, because min gmaes like that, if the "always on" game in question is disconnected from the net for ANY amount of time. It can set the player back to a saved position or even at the start of the game. Totally moronic in my opinion! I would never, EVER play any game that gave such idiotic restrictions. I vote with my wallet and others should too.
Buying such games only makes developers think that is a good idea when in fact it is horrible. So no, that would be a FOURTH reason I would not buy thief 4...."always on" is a stupid concept and I would never support it with my money. And I hope the people that came up with this concept lose their shirt because of it. Maybe then games will be a little more fair for purchasers.
