Ostriig on 15/7/2009 at 14:08
Quote Posted by catbarf
I always wonder why writers of this sort of sci-fi don't seize upon the easiest explanations. Example: If understanding of the human brain has progressed significantly, then wire that 100-ton robot into the pilot's central nervous system and let his own functions handle keeping balance and walking. Problem solved.
Nitpick - is that really feasible science fiction, direct brain control, or mostly just fiction? You'd either have to feed in new nervous functionality into the brain, which I think is rather far-fetched, or, as you suggest, selectively map existing nervous lines to correspond to the machine's equivalent, while somehow shutting off the respective body functions while plugged in. And then there's the matter of overriding your own body's sensory feedback with the correct information from the machine to allow you to run it properly - for instance, the sensation of balance as it's proper for the mech instead of the pilot, or the mechanical responsiveness of the mech's leg instead of the human's leg.
What I'm trying to say - is direct mapping of the machine's functions to the pilot's brain really the "easier" solution? Or just assuming fairly complex software to provide automatic compensation in parallel to a traditional interface?
Quote Posted by DDL
You know, if the ground you're walking on is full of tiny abrasive shards that are fucking up your mech's feet, it helps if this is communicated to you by "ow, my feet" rather than waiting until a damage display comes up, or your mech's feet fall off or something.
Yeah, and if you take a more serious hit the result is overwhelming pain, possibly inducing panic and wrong decisions, as opposed to just the HUD flaring up, which would give a trained professional a far better chance at still making a correct, level-headed decision. Pain, as a natural mechanic, works best to instantly trigger conservation instincts, but for humans, as more evolved animals that can comprehend danger and damage even without it, in some situations the trade-offs might be a lot more serious than the advantages brought by immediacy.
catbarf on 15/7/2009 at 15:00
Quote Posted by Ostriig
Nitpick - is that really feasible science fiction, direct brain control, or mostly just fiction? You'd either have to feed in new nervous functionality into the brain, which I think is rather far-fetched, or, as you suggest, selectively map existing nervous lines to correspond to the machine's equivalent, while somehow shutting off the respective body functions while plugged in. And then there's the matter of overriding your own body's sensory feedback with the correct information from the machine to allow you to run it properly - for instance, the sensation of balance as it's proper for the mech instead of the pilot, or the mechanical responsiveness of the mech's leg instead of the human's leg.
What I'm trying to say - is direct mapping of the machine's functions to the pilot's brain really the "easier" solution? Or just assuming fairly complex software to provide automatic compensation in parallel to a traditional interface?
You've got a point. But if you can create a world where it
is possible, then you have a justification for walking vehicles, as it is not unfeasibly expensive due to the gyroscopic stabilization and programming otherwise required.
Thirith on 15/7/2009 at 15:05
Quote Posted by Ostriig
Yeah, and if you take a more serious hit the result is overwhelming pain, possibly inducing panic and wrong decisions, as opposed to just the HUD flaring up, which would give a trained professional a far better chance at still making a correct, level-headed decision. Pain, as a natural mechanic, works best to instantly trigger conservation instincts, but for humans, as more evolved animals that can comprehend danger and damage even without it, in some situations the trade-offs might be a lot more serious than the advantages brought by immediacy.
That's something you'd be able to control, though. Rather than feed back excruciating pain, you could dampen the sensation but couple it with other kinds of feedback. Still more useful (potentially) than yet another blinking light.
DDL on 15/7/2009 at 16:12
I did say "within limits": crippling pain that isn't even
real is never going to be a smart feedback strategy.
As to controlling giant walky robots with your brain alone, we're (perhaps worryingly) actually getting there: (
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7423184.stm) MONKEYS!!
And as far as things like (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception) proprioception go (which is a good point), the brain is incredibly plastic, and given enough sensory feedback, and enough practice could conceivably remap functions and control areas to better match "my body is a giant robot" than "my body is..my body", so you'd end up with all these fantastic mech pilots who have forgotten how to actually use their own limbs.
Steven Hawking in the body of a giant robot, anyone?
Ostriig on 15/7/2009 at 17:31
I suppose dampened or capped sensory feedback might have its advantages in conjunction with traditional interfaces in reducing response time, but you'll again have to think of how to map the machine correspondingly to the human body. Otherwise, yes, the user would likely have to trade human efficiency for piloting efficiency, and I'm not sure how many would sign up.
That's simply
phenomenal, thanks for the link! But why do you think "perhaps worryingly"? The was I see it, this may yet result into one of the single greatest advancements in medical science, and I'm really hard pressed to think of any potential harm coming from it. I seriously don't think Gunther's "old gray golems" could ever come to pass.
Fafhrd on 15/7/2009 at 18:16
Quote Posted by catbarf
I always wonder why writers of this sort of sci-fi don't seize upon the easiest explanations. Example: If understanding of the human brain has progressed significantly, then wire that 100-ton robot into the pilot's central nervous system and let his own functions handle keeping balance and walking. Problem solved.
The 'Mechs in the original Battletech game fiction did work sort of like this. They were controlled by neurohelmet interfaces. Balance was maintained through a combination of gyroscopic stabilization (iirc you could damage gyros and effect accuracy rolls, but I might be wrong) and the pilot's own sense of balance. The structural issues were worked around through a combination of super-advanced high-tensile metals, and artificial muscle (myomer) controlling locomotion, instead of hydraulics.
JohnnyTheWolf on 15/7/2009 at 23:25
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
The 'Mechs in the original Battletech game fiction did work sort of like this. They were controlled by neurohelmet interfaces. Balance was maintained through a combination of gyroscopic stabilization (iirc you could damage gyros and effect accuracy rolls, but I might be wrong) and the pilot's own sense of balance. The structural issues were worked around through a combination of super-advanced high-tensile metals, and artificial muscle (myomer) controlling locomotion, instead of hydraulics.
You know, that actually sounds so much cooler than what we've been getting for the last few games, in which MechWarriors all looked like Rogue Squadron rejects. It sure would be nice to see actual neurointerfaces in MW5
Matthew on 16/7/2009 at 14:17
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
The 'Mechs in the original Battletech game fiction did work sort of like this. They were controlled by neurohelmet interfaces. Balance was maintained through a combination of gyroscopic stabilization (iirc you could damage gyros and effect accuracy rolls, but I might be wrong) and the pilot's own sense of balance. The structural issues were worked around through a combination of super-advanced high-tensile metals, and artificial muscle (myomer) controlling locomotion, instead of hydraulics.
I was just about to post this! The novels etc also make a big deal of it.
EvaUnit02 on 16/7/2009 at 14:26
Oh my God, I remember all about the neural helmets now. The Clansmen had Cybernetic implants or the like, which left visible markings on their faces that resembled tribal paint.
JohnnyTheWolf on 18/7/2009 at 13:07
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
Oh my God, I remember all about the neural helmets now. The Clansmen had Cybernetic implants or the like, which left visible markings on their faces that resembled tribal paint.
All of this reminds me of the Mega Man franchise. You'd think that playing the games would be enough to get all the cool details, but no, you have to read the sourcebooks.
At least, BattleTech novels aren't Japan-exlusive.
