Body awareness - TTLG Forums

Ostriig on 20/9/2009 at 00:17

Quote Posted by Namdrol

But I want to try a far more common example of the limitations an increased body awareness would cause than a candle stick through bars. (Reasonable example though it was imho.)
Pictures in a frame. Garret has robbed these all through the series.
Does he get out his dagger out, cut round the frame and roll up the picture?

No, the way I see it, if you wanted that, the straight-forward implementation which wouldn't impede control would be to see the character's arm pick up the picture, frame and all, and move it off-screen as though towards the character's back. As it would be with taking any piece of loot.

But that's realistic arm interaction and, for my part, it's something I'm backing away from supporting as a possible current-gen feature. The difficulty in implementation would be due to clipping possibilities with surrounding decor, anything between you and the object you're picking up. I'll stick to supporting a visible player body but with "inviso-arms", as Wormrat called it, for actual player interaction.

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Back OT.

I forgot about Mirrors Edge since I only played the demo on the PS3. The feet in that were pretty unobtrusive so yeah, Ostriig, if done like that it's be fine.

Problem is - you just KNOW it wont be.

Just frakking know it.

Hey, sure mate, I'm also a pessimist when it comes to the industry these days, and I 'd be less surprised by a poor implementation rather than a good one. But you've gotta admit that would be a problem with the devs, not the concept.

SubJeff on 20/9/2009 at 00:22

I haven't played the full game though, so I'm not sure it would really be ok.

You still need to play T1/2 before you can really comment. I don't think you can understand without feeling the level of tight control you have in that. Its not the same as in other FPSs and you notice it all the more because you need that control.

And I think its time you took back your pissant/circlejerk insult because frankly, it was just fucking rude and uncalled for.

jtr7 on 20/9/2009 at 00:38

The concept is a construct of the mind, free from constraints the devs are under to make them tangible. I still believe the concept has far less weight, and is less meaningful than new blood at a new company with no roots in LGS making a respectable Thief game, which they should focus on pulling off and exceeding, not homogenizing and improving on what was never needed and only desired by a few among those who were sucked in.

Remember C-3PO in Phantom Menace? :laff::nono::o

Ostriig on 20/9/2009 at 00:56

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

I haven't played the full game though, so I'm not sure it would really be ok.

As a comment on Mirror's Edge in general - haven't finished, but I don't regret having bought it. The few hours I did put in were pretty fun, and I expect I'll return to finish it. It's a tight design, and an overall fresh and different experience. Frustrating at times, but really rewarding at others.

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You still need to play T1/2 before you can really comment. I don't think you can understand without feeling the level of tight control you have in that. Its not the same as in other FPSs and you notice it all the more because you need that control.

Fair enough, but what we're circling here is that what I'm suggesting wouldn't bring about control limitations to a natural design. After all, it's just a visual trinket. And I have welcomed any descriptions of T1/2 situations that couldn't be served by this sort of body awareness to discuss. I'm inclined to believe that solutions could be found which wouldn't compromise the controls.

Anyway, I'll find out this year, likely, I was supposed to play T2 earlier this Summer, but I couldn't get it to work on the laptop I had with me. It's been on my list for a good long time, I'll try again on the desktop once I'm done with Stalker.

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And I think its time you took back your pissant/circlejerk insult because frankly, it was just fucking rude and uncalled for.

Look, I don't wanna be inflamatory again or petty, but I'll take that back when you retract what prompted it. You may not have realised it, but you were way out of line with that comment, and I hadn't been an ass before, to invite that aggressive stance. There were other ways to put it. Between a solid experience with first-person games in general and an actual technical background on the subject, I think my comments on the topic are actually pretty relevant, even should there be some mechanical details to make this a special case.

SubJeff on 20/9/2009 at 01:23

I'll be getting Mirror's Edge soon. In fact I'm due a whole bunch of gaming in the near future.

What prompted your rudeness is something you've just agreed with. You cannot and will not understand why Thief 1 and 2 players loath the idea of body awareness, an idea tainted by the TDS experience of it, unless you have played them.

Why should I take something back when you've agreed with it?

You can eat all the seafood you like but until you've actually had lobster your opinion on its taste is irrelevant. Yes, the controls in Thief 1 and 2 are as different from other FPSs - in that they are just so spot on and tight - that they are as different as king tiger prawn is to lobster. I'm not saying they are completely different but the subtly is enough that without knowing you really have no idea.

Bakerman on 20/9/2009 at 01:34

Quote Posted by Ostriig

If you wanna quote several posts in a row, you can click the Multi button on each one, then hit Post Reply. Or Multi each one aside from the last you want, and hit Quote on that one. The names and post link still get associated automatically that way.

Cheers! I tried that before, but when nothing happened I assumed it was broken or something :p. Didn't notice the little thing change to green.

Quote Posted by Namdrol

People on both sides seem to be listening.

Yep. Finally.

Quote Posted by Namdrol

(And I still think my point about encumbrance is valid.
With our visible, well animated bodies how much can we carry? Where does realism stop?)

Pockets?

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Problem is - you just KNOW it wont be.

Just frakking know it.

That was the problem with TDS as well, and we have every right to be skeptical. But I don't think that just because you don't think something will be done well, it shouldn't be done at all. Heck, I'm worried about how the rest of Thiaf will be, but I still want it made.

Quote Posted by jtr7

they should focus on pulling off and exceeding, not homogenizing and improving on what was never needed and only desired by a few among those who were sucked in.

Fair enough, but I still don't think that the solution would compromise other aspects of the game. Maybe I'm underestimatng the cost, but I do think you're surely overestimating it.
Oh, and I caught that jab, thank you very much. I was not sucked in. I just happen to have a different opinion to you.

ZylonBane on 20/9/2009 at 02:12

Quote Posted by Namdrol

With our visible, well animated bodies how much can we carry? Where does realism stop?

It stops where it conflicts with fun. There, was that so hard?

theBlackman on 20/9/2009 at 02:41

Quote Posted by ZylonBane

It stops where it conflicts with fun. There, was that so hard?

Finally someone who really gets it. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

jtr7 on 20/9/2009 at 03:17

Dangit! That wasn't coming through?

Well, not that succinctly (not at all :p ), but that's been the root of the opposition all along.:thumb:

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Maybe I'm underestimatng the cost, but I do think you're surely overestimating it.

Based on what? The epic games that have everything you've ever wanted, all done very well, without kidding yourself or settling and forgiving? Do they exist? I haven't seen one example offered that did not have what would be unacceptable problems for Thief elsewhere in them. If EM can build the core, build it better than we've ever experienced, and have time to put a bold face on it, then okay. I don't believe it's possible with a 60-person team in less than two-years. EM's in the process of hiring 40 people on top of a core of 20 over a six-month period, so they aren't even there yet, and won't hire the last 20 to reach the 80-person goal until the home-stretch. Better to err on the side that promotes integrity than the side that guarantees SOMEthing will be compromised, and you are focused on watching the body interact with the environment rather than the flow of the player through the environment with no regard for resources. See my concern? Balance. I'll calm down when you become realistic about your wishlist. I seriously think expecting great Thief from EM is already asking quite a lot and any more is greedy. Thief 5 might have a better chance if they don't have to hack another engine. Expansion packs/patches/mods would be the better playground for these things. It's very possible and not too hard to dream big and acknowledge the realities of the industry. Temper the former with the latter. Read up on the behind-the-scenes stories of games--very informative.

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Oh, and I caught that jab, thank you very much. I was not sucked in. I just happen to have a different opinion to you.

"Sucked in[to the game and ethos]". I don't know if you thought I meant something else. Anyway, the obvious shouldn't have to be stated. Interesting you perceive that as a jab.

theBlackman on 20/9/2009 at 04:05

Just to throw a little shit in the comments. Are TDP, TGOLD, TMA unimmersive, unplayable and distasteful because the original graphics are archaic? Nooo.

Are they all of the above because the player has to learn the limits of Garrett's (ne themselves) in terms of "how close Garrett can get to an edge, how wide he is, how tall he is"? Nooo.

If one plays enough and develops the same spacial awareness that one needs to ride a bicycle, walk through a room, drive a car, then one does become aware of Garrett's body in relationship to the game setting.

As stated earlier, you/me/all healthy humans do not look at thier hands or feet when engaged in normal activities. We are "aware" of our spacial requirements.

I play a guitar. Initially I did need to look at my hands and the neck of the instrument. Now I only need know: I have a guitar in my hands, I am going to play in the key of XXX.

That's it. And as Garrett. I have developed that same "body awareness" IN GAME.

We don't need the extra "Eye candy" to be in the game development. Unless you are a rank amatuer, "body awareness" as "wished" for is like the automatic receiving of the BFG and Magic what-ever-the-hell-it-is, because you did XYZ.

If you really play the game and concentrate on being Garrett and developing his skills, you don't need the magic bow to shoot the push button to lower the elevator, or draw bridge, or light switch, or gate switch.

You develop the skill and then, as Garrett, you DO IT because YOU BECAME SKILLED. Not because the "gods of gaming" gave you the magic "cheat" to allow you to.