Ostriig on 20/9/2009 at 17:09
Quote Posted by jtr7
[...] why we give a damn
this much. And as many here, don't know the context of what I'm saying, even though it's there.
Oh, but I do have a pretty good clue, SubJeff inadvertently hit on it :
Quote:
an idea tainted by the TDS experience of it
And I'm getting tired of this "you don't know what it's like" shit. All you do is make vague general statements and strawman arguments, pulling my points out of context and never addressing them directly. You either don't get it, or choose not to, by consistently ignoring examples that contradict you. Now that you've
finally conceded to put some actual situations, what do you go for? What TDS screwed up. Despite claiming not to.
Quote:
Did I say TDS? I keep saying modern games. How many times? Until we're convinced, even as we continue to disagree.
[...]
So...it's possible to keep the feet rooted while looking 180-degrees behind, like a real person as a normal part of a game like Thief?
You turn the mesh with you when the yaw is sufficient! Mirror's Fucking Edge. It does it perfectly, no re-alignment, no shifting, no nothing, it just animates the mesh below you. The camera point and your actual position are perfectly aligned.
Quote:
The candle-through-the cage could be an example to build toward, since it would demonstrate several things at once, and if pulled off, would be lauded, I guarantee. How much more time will it take me to line up my body like an invalid, or not, to move with this type of full body-awareness so I don't bump into anything like I'm not even a healthy and able human, let alone a Master Thief?
Stop bringing up working arms. That was shown to not be feasible and the point was dropped.
The only point you've got so far is swiveling around ladders, and even that's just needing more intricate casework to string along the animations.
And screw you with that passive-aggressive bullshit you've been pulling from your very second post in this thread. My last two replies to you didn't have a single personal quip or insult, and I thought you'd take a hint, but still you can't help throw an epithet my way and act like you don't know what got me pissed off with you in the first place.
Zylon, how do you not get this, it's just an animated mesh that reacts to your position and the ground beneath it. It's not trying to anticipate your next move, just reacts to you. Nothing else. And you don't have to move or jitter anything, this doesn't genuinely obstruct your view. In all likelihood, 20 hours of play would have you shuffle aside maybe once or twice. Oh, crap, look at that, (
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb67/Ostriig/me_crouch1.jpg) I can't even see the ledge!
PotatoGuy on 20/9/2009 at 20:34
These posts give me pain in my tummy. :(
New Horizon on 20/9/2009 at 20:54
The length of these posts are ridiculous. Mirrors Edge, great game, but a different game. What works for Mirrors Edge is not necessarily good for Thief, or perhaps more specifically...a PC exclusive Thief game...which we will never see these days.
Body awareness seems better geared for casual console gaming, than it does on a PC.
As a PC gamer, I'm looking for this type of world interaction.
(
http://www.penumbragame.com/game.php) Penumbra
Penumbra had some former Thief 1 and 2 developers on board, and it shows. The game exudes classic Thief far better than Thief Deadly Shadows ever did.
Vae on 20/9/2009 at 21:10
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
And this sort of thing is exactly the problem-- since the on-screen body
isn't my body, and since I have such limited inputs to control it, this leads to two problems I've already mentioned--
1. The game is forced to guess what my intentions are. AKA, "It looks like you're writing a letter!" syndrome. As anyone who's had to deal with software which tries to helpfully guess your intentions can attest, these guesses are only occasionally correct. And when they're not correct, the situation becomes far more of a pain in the ass than if the software never tried to help at all. Maybe I'm trying to gauge my footing on a particularly tight ledge, and actually want to look at my feet. Oops... can't do it!
2. It's bad for immersion. Something like the aforementioned autonomous foot jittering to avoid the camera view serves as a stark reminder to the player that the body on-screen isn't theirs, and is thus free to act on its own whenever the hell it feels like it. Oh boy, a collaborative body. Just what players want.
:thumb:Yes...It simply boils down to *I AM* vs *I am puppet master*.
theBlackman on 20/9/2009 at 21:11
Quote Posted by PotatoGuy
These posts give me pain in my tummy. :(
Then stop reading them. :ebil:
Fafhrd on 20/9/2009 at 23:10
Quote Posted by New Horizon
Body awareness seems better geared for casual console gaming, than it does on a PC.
Yes, casual console games like Operation Flashpoint/ARMA, Fear 1 and 2, Morrowind and Oblivion, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay, and Mirror's Edge.
And Mirror's Edge's body awareness and environment based animations are DIRECTLY applicable to Thief 4. It's the only game I've played since Thief where the movement feels as natural as Thief's. Yes, it's a lot faster, but even the actual interactions with the environment and the effect they have on the camera work flawlessly. And the game absolutely
would not work without the body awareness.
Deadly Shadows didn't work for one reason: It was designed for third person. First person view was a camera hack, and the developers admitted as much in interviews. If the body's animations are
designed for first person, (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcz-3paQ26k) as Mirror's Edge did, it works.
And jtr: You're
really not helping your 'I'M NOT CLINGING TO THE PAST' claims by calling people 'taffer' and posting reactionary image macros.
Vivian on 20/9/2009 at 23:15
As someone who studies biomechanics for a living, I can safely say that if someone gets hominoid inverse kinematics working realistically in a fucking videogame within 20 years I will eat a black hole.
Chade on 20/9/2009 at 23:52
Now that's a high stakes bet! :joke:
Can you go into more detail Vivian?
Ostriig on 20/9/2009 at 23:59
Vivian - If you say so, but a fully working human model isn't what we're going for here. The scope is just adjusting knee position for a variation of a foot within something like 20 cm vertical or horizontal. Just part of the Poser calculation model showed earlier would suffice altogether.
And, yet again, IK is just the better solution here. It's by no means the only one, and the implementation of body awareness does not hinge on it.
Fafhrd - I don't think Morrowind features body awareness, does it? Oblivion sure doesn't.
Edit: Found (
http://www.giantbomb.com/full-body-awareness/92-1692/) this,
apparently a list of games using the body awareness feature.
Vae on 21/9/2009 at 00:28
At the top of that list is says "Some first person games that wish to immerse the player in the experience more will go as far as to include Full Body Awareness, or the ability to see your body when looking down". It is amazing to me how many industry folk have such a weak grasp on what immersion really is.
