New Horizon on 28/11/2009 at 15:36
Quote Posted by aidakeeley
It's not a fair statement, it's a sheepish cop-out from someone who has no arguments left that haven't been roundly defeated...
Wow, you saw right through me. I've been caught in my own not so cleverly designed plan.
Obviously no one can ever make a sincere statement online without it serving some ulterior motive. It's just like any one who signs up on this forum to make inflammatory comments can't be anything but a troll.
The Shroud on 28/11/2009 at 20:46
Yeah, you're right, aidakeeley, shame on me for thinking anyone on the opposite side of the debate can make a fair statement. Cause then how could we keep up the angst? And long-winded, circular arguments? And repetitions of the same points since the beginning? We can't stop at only 14 pages!
Namdrol on 28/11/2009 at 21:46
Hmm, Namdrol wonders about altniks...
jtr7 on 29/11/2009 at 03:53
Ages and ages of pages in various stages...
Bakerman on 29/11/2009 at 06:13
Hey, you're a poet and...
...
Finally, this topic is getting the respect it deserves! :thumb:
Fafhrd on 29/11/2009 at 21:06
Quote Posted by New Horizon
There were no fallacies. Certainly you realize that the animations aren't just made and then dropped ingame? If there is no system coded to tell the engine what to do with the animation, then it does nothing at all. It doesn't just come into being because a bunch of animators made some fancy movements. The animation is only the visual representation/feedback for the underlying BA system, a system that is coded by programmers. Any development team is going to have the same programmers working across multiple systems. They're not going to hire two or three programmers just to work on a BA system, or any other system. Sure, they will likely have assigned tasks within certain groups...but the load will no doubt be shared. Development isn't going to be that radically different from game to game. So yes, it does take time away from coding other systems.
Walking, running, moving while crouched, jumping, leaning, mantling, and climbing are actions that the player is going to be performing regardless of whether the body is visible or not. Hooking up the scripts that link animations for all of these actions is part of the animator's job. From what we know, the engine they're using
is already set up for that (I'm fairly certain that most engines are, now. Unreal certainly is) since it was originally designed for a third person game (and DX3 is going to have places where it pulls into the third person, based on player action). They're not going to have to write huge chunks of code and force them in to an engine that was only ever intended for first-person run and gun gameplay. Since this is for the
player character the
AI guys won't be part of the process at all. If the physics guys are involved beyond gravity and a collision mesh for the player model, then they're doing it wrong.
And yes, for projects as complex as DX3 and T4, I do think the EM is going to have
dedicated and seperate teams for AI, physics, and lighting in the shared technology group, as well as two or three project specific guys who are all about those systems. In case you've forgotten (
http://www.eidosmontreal.com/files/images/news/Eidos-Studio-2009-01-LE.jpg) there are 250 people at EM. Probably more now, since that was in August. 60 of those are QA, 10-15 are probably HR and facilities, but that still leaves nearly 90 straight up developers per game. (and yeah, (
http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/games.html) obviously the T4 team isn't that big yet but with DX3 aiming for a release either late next year or early 2011, obviously they're getting the lion's share of the talent right now). I don't expect there'll be much overlap in assignments for a team that large until they hit crunch and are pulling 18-24 hour shifts for the two or three weeks leading up to the planned gold date.
New Horizon on 29/11/2009 at 21:51
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Walking, running, moving while crouched, jumping, leaning, mantling, and climbing are actions that the player is going to be performing regardless of whether the body is visible or not. Hooking up the scripts that link animations for all of these actions is part of the animator's job.
A BA system is not just a 3rd person system. There is much more to it than simply linking in the scripts.
You know anything and everything it seems, so I'll just leave it at that.
Namdrol on 29/11/2009 at 22:03
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
Hooking up the scripts that link animations for all of these actions is part of the animator's job.
The sheer number of scripts needed to allow the freedom of object manipulation that The Dark Mod offers is mind boggling.
And without that freedom we become stuck with a limited number of scripted moves.
And for what gain?
It will come, and when it does, if it works, I'll welcome it.
But Thief has always tried to offer freedom and do we want a limited game now because of unneeded eye candy.
The Shroud on 30/11/2009 at 00:01
Here's where I stand. I like BA for Thief. I think it's important enough for the 1st-person sneaker theme (to several players, not all) to warrant its implementation, and I think it can be done. I'm not an expert by any means, and have never claimed to be. I think it belongs in the game, but I do not think it's more crucial than core systems like AI, and if it really did come down to a decision between implementing BA or perfecting the core mechanics, I would fully support the developers focusing on the latter. Time and budget override our wishlist.
I think most, if not all, of the pro side would agree with that. I have not seen one person argue from the standpoint that BA is more important than the basics. On the other hand, no one here, including myself, really knows in depth how EM is handling the T4 development. We can speculate on the feasibility or infeasibility of implementing BA but in the end, speculation will be overridden by reality. Therefore I think it's pretty pointless to argue about whether it can be done. There is no final word on that until the game is released.
The only reasonable debate we can have is over whether or not it's a good thing for Thief - and to that extent, the arguments on both sides are covered exhaustively in the many pages of this thread. I have not seen any new points raised in that argument for some time now. Are there any new pro or con points about that?
Fafhrd on 30/11/2009 at 02:07
Quote Posted by Namdrol
The sheer number of scripts needed to allow the freedom of object manipulation that The Dark Mod offers is mind boggling.
And without that freedom we become stuck with a limited number of scripted moves.
YOU DON'T NEED ANIMATIONS FOR EVERY CONCEIVABLE INTERACTION. And as I said in (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1909259#post1909259) this post, that's exactly NOT what anyone wants.
Quote Posted by ME
It's purely about movement and giving the player a better idea of their relationship to the environment
Jesus christ, arguing about body awareness with you people is like arguing about emergent gameplay with Jashin.
