Body awareness - TTLG Forums

Bakerman on 1/12/2009 at 05:55

Multiplayer is an interesting dilemma - but I don't think we can say 'T4 should have BA because it would be needed for multiplayer anyway' because the issue of whether T4 will/should have multiplayer is a huge and complex discussion on its own.

I think if T4 was going to feature MP, BA would be a huge benefit. The merits of BA of your own character in first-person can be argued, but it would sure as hell break my immersion to see a fellow master thief animating like a guard. If such detailed animation were needed to make remote players look decent, it'd be trivial to adapt it to play nice with first-person.

For those who might be interested: I just implemented torso-twisting and freelooking in my build. Already avoided the T3 problem with head/foot alignment - my players always move exactly where your head's looking ;).

Platinumoxicity on 1/12/2009 at 10:52

Quote Posted by Fafhrd

If you're immersed in the first person experience, then you're looking at your own legs.

There's no point in arguing about this because we get immersed differently in the game. Your immersion needs some kind of a vessel, like the body that's seen in first person. My immersion needs only the fluid, comfortable ingame movement system, and I know that my arms and legs are there even though I can't see them. The problem is that I can't understand why it is that you need that fake body underneath you, and you can't understand why I don't, so if we debate this it will never end.

I've been trying to explain to all, the way I and others like me get immersed in Thief but I've failed every time because it's so hard to put to words. Your immersion is easy because you rely on the visual representation of the body ingame.

Bakerman on 1/12/2009 at 13:03

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

I've been trying to explain to all, the way I and others like me get immersed in Thief but I've failed every time because it's so hard to put to words. Your immersion is easy because you rely on the visual representation of the body ingame.

Don't think that Fafhrd or I or others rely on having BA for immersion. I'll speak for myself when I say that the things that immerse me are the same as for any of you on the con side - the atmosphere, visuals, movement, sound, characters. However, when I look down and see a blob shadow and the floor, that immersion is broken, rather than being sustained. It's not like I have to regularly look down to check I still exist in-game. It's just that I, like others, find the inviso-body an immersion-breaker, whereas some don't.

The Shroud on 1/12/2009 at 21:55

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

True.

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

The problem is that I can't understand why it is that you need that fake body underneath you, and you can't understand why I don't

I think we can understand why you don't. I do, at least.

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

so if we debate this it will never end.

Exactly.

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

I've been trying to explain to all, the way I and others like me get immersed in Thief but I've failed every time because it's so hard to put to words.

You haven't failed to explain it, and it's not that hard to put into words.

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

Your immersion is easy because you rely on the visual representation of the body ingame.

True, it does make it easier for us.

Quote Posted by Bakerman

Precisely.

Platinumoxicity on 2/12/2009 at 11:03

BTW The shroud, no offence but I find it extremely irritating when you quote parts of text and reply to all of them using 1-5 words. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

Quote Posted by Bakerman

I understand. But would you still be missing the BA if TDS didn't have it at all? I've never heard anyone complain that Gordon in Half-Life 2 is missing a visible body, because he didn't have it in HL1 either. ;)

I'll try to explain again, sorry... When I the real world I look down, I don't feel surprised when my perception simply ignores the presence of my legs in the picture that's projected into my brain. The only moment I acknowledge that my legs are actually there is when I'm literally standing on top of what I'm trying to find and I need to move my foot. That's the same thing with first-person games like Thief with me. I don't feel the immersion broken when I can't find the legs underneath me, because I trust that they're always there, and I pay attention to neither their existance nor their inexistance. It's the same thing as wearing clothes really. You step into a shell that you quickly get used to and you stop paying attention to wearing it. You know it's there, so you don't even consider the possibility that it suddenly isn't there.

Namdrol on 2/12/2009 at 11:10

Quote Posted by Namdrol

I've tried not to get sucked back into this discussion but oh well...
First Shroud my man it's good, compromise and understanding but it is a little odd to say -

Because we thought we'd got to that point in October and then the thread got resurrected by someone. ;)

Quote Posted by Namdrol

I've tried not to get sucked back into this discussion but oh well...

Quote Posted by The Shroud

I rest my case. :D

Touché.

:thumb:

Platinumoxicity on 2/12/2009 at 13:11

What's so touché about that? :confused:

Namdrol on 2/12/2009 at 14:04

To quote -
"In fencing, touché is used as an acknowledgement of a hit, called out by the fencer who is hit."

Beleg Cúthalion on 2/12/2009 at 15:05

But no one actually does that, except for the umpire maybe.

driver on 2/12/2009 at 16:28

Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity

I've always missed having a visible body in FP games.

Also, earlier in this thread I used HL2 as an example of a game that looked very strange as Gordon was without a body, especially the sections where you piloted vehicles. It wasn't so bad in HL1, but it's very strange when you're in a buggy and the steering wheel and pedals move by themselves.