The Shroud on 2/12/2009 at 17:45
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
BTW The shroud, no offence but I find it extremely irritating when you quote parts of text and reply to all of them using 1-5 words. I dunno, maybe it's just me.
:weird: You actually
want me to blab more?
Bakerman on 2/12/2009 at 20:36
Quote Posted by Platinumoxicity
I understand. But would you still be missing the BA if TDS didn't have it at all? I've never heard anyone complain that Gordon in Half-Life 2 is missing a visible body, because he didn't have it in HL1 either. ;)
If I haven't complained about HL2, I'm sorry, but I meant to. I probably mentioned it in passing. But this isn't just some problem I have with Thief, and no, it wasn't at all brought on by TDS (like I've said before, I dislike the BA in that game). It's a problem I have with every FP game.
Quote:
I'll try to explain again, sorry...
I get it ;). But I've said all along that ignoring is not the same as not seeing. Ignoring something implies that it's there and visible, you just don't pay it any attention, and nor should you. Inviso-bodies don't give you anything to ignore, which sounds silly, but that's how I see it :p.
Platinumoxicity on 2/12/2009 at 23:22
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I get it ;). But I've said all along that ignoring is not the same as not seeing. Ignoring something implies that it's there and visible, you just don't pay it any attention, and nor should you. Inviso-bodies don't give you anything to ignore, which sounds silly, but that's how I see it :p.
No, the inviso-bodies give you "nothing" -so that you ignore the lack of "something" and fill the void with something you imagine yourself. :)
Bakerman on 3/12/2009 at 07:04
Well, if that's the way it works for you, then fair enough. I can't imagine that working for me. Else I wouldn't bother texturing the walls in my game ;)
jtr7 on 17/12/2009 at 11:44
Bi-zarre. The textures of the environment aren't being dragged around by the player like a HUD, nor forever blocking the same areas of the view. The textures don't change the shape of the visible terrain. The textures help define the environment so decisions can be made. I still have not seen a body in a game that isn't either in the way and needing guidance, like pushing (or pulling, like in Mirror's Edge) a mannequin into position, or overly-automated so the limbs are doing things separate from the players' intent. Always having a a body shape that doesn't do what a body does, and is not in the player's control, and is really a marionette dangling stiffly from a floating eyeball, is still gimmicky, a crutch, and unnecessary. And still it does not move out of the way like a real body when the player wants to just frikkin' look at something. A lot of us enjoy the world itself and when it comes to really paying attention, the body is a nuisance. What's the band-aid fix for the body that's blocking the view? A 3rd-person camera. What's the fix for taking a clean, Garrett-less screenshot? I would hope there was a fix for that. It's bad enough having a thumb or finger in view of the lens when taking a picture of landscape, architecture, monuments, or people. :laff::p I have no choice but to use T3Ed to take screenshots at whatever angle I want.
Round and round we go.
The Shroud on 17/12/2009 at 17:28
Quote Posted by jtr7
...forever blocking the same areas of the view...
Like...the ground under your feet? Yeah, that totally interferes with your view... :rolleyes: Seriously, what in the world are you envisioning here? A fat belly protruding so far outward that you can't see the floor? Arms that stay perpetually outstretched in front of you like a roaming zombie? Where's all this supposed obstruction? You're not seriously complaining about your feet covering those fascinating floor-tiles, are you?
Quote Posted by jtr7
...either in the way and needing guidance...or overly-automated so the limbs are doing things separate from the players' intent.
That doesn't even make any sense. Why would your limbs be doing something separate from your intent? Unless you
intend to open a door or whatever, your arm isn't going to spontaneously reach out and grab.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Always having a a body shape that doesn't do what a body does, and is not in the player's control, and is really a marionette dangling stiffly from a floating eyeball, is still gimmicky, a crutch, and unnecessary.
Why
wouldn't the body "do what a body does", unless it's very poorly animated? You press the Walk key... Surprise! Your legs walk and you move forward. Were you expecting your feet to dance instead?
Quote Posted by jtr7
And still it does not move out of the way like a real body when the player wants to just frikkin' look at something.
Oh for crying out loud, not this same senseless gripe
again. Your body
is not in the way of your view! What's it going to take for this simple fact to sink in? If you want to see the portion of the floor that your feet are covering, then for the love of all sanity, just
take a freaking step! Sheesh. This has got to be the most asinine, desperate non-argument I've seen the cons resort to out of all the petty excuses to keep the invisible box. And on top of that, it's not as if you'll be playing with body-rendering turned on in the first place, since you hate it with such a passion, so
where's the problem? The plain truth is, there isn't one - and you wish there were, so you'd have something legitimate to gripe about, therefore you
make up imaginary problems just to keep arguing. Seriously, whom do you think you're fooling?
Sulphur on 17/12/2009 at 18:24
Drop it, man. Dogmatism follows an age-old creed; blind belief is its own reward for the faithful. We're not here to proselytise, we're here to hope and hopefully see the medium advance forward.
If body awareness were something that actually hindered immersion regardless of it being done well or not, I don't think developers would have bothered with it for all these years. Absolute muscle fidelity is obviously not the goal, but a very reasonable approximation is. This isn't experimental any more. Many of us are of the opinion that, when done well, it simply works. That's all that's required of it.
If some can't reconcile their views to that, then they're free to hold that opinion. Progress is impartial to most people's views, either way.
Vae on 17/12/2009 at 18:46
Quote Posted by Sulphur
If body awareness were something that actually hindered immersion regardless of it being done well or not, I don't think developers would have bothered with it for all these years.
Really?...If developers have been so concerned with immersion, then why is TMA the most immersive game ever created to date?
Sulphur on 17/12/2009 at 18:49
Um, let me see...
...because it's your opinion?
Vae on 17/12/2009 at 19:26
Are you joking?
When T1/T2 came on the scene, they revolutionized immersive gameplay.
The sad part was that I had thought that the trend would continue to expand and gaming would become even more immersive...but it sadly did not...:(
I had thought this basic truth was self evident.
