Brainy Gamer's Vintage Game Club picks Deus Ex for Sept. '08 - by doctorfrog
Aja on 29/8/2008 at 18:54
god you guys are such tools
rachel on 29/8/2008 at 20:07
Yeah, I know it's a discussion about games here so rabid zealotry is to be expected, but is it possible to discuss personal preferences without resorting to ad hominem shit-flinging? At least ZB's explaining why he didn't like it. You're acting like a bunch of five-year-olds...
ZylonBane on 29/8/2008 at 21:07
Quote Posted by van HellSing
Oh God.
Oh gosh, oh golly yes, I'm such a fool for listing some of the most common reward mechanisms in game design.
Quote:
Are we still talking about Silent Hill 2 here?
Well if you don't play it for the gameplay, and you don't play it for the story, then what do you play it for?
Muzman on 29/8/2008 at 22:47
Silent Hill seems a bit like the Matrix series in that all the little quirks and weirdness is understood to be hugely symbolic of some meta-business going on. And if you find it working for you a person can do all sorts of backflips fitting something into this story according to some interpretation.
It could evenbe by design, but if the fundamental suggestions that seem to be behind it aren't all that interesting to someone, for whatever reason, it can come apart pretty easily and just be a collection of pointless elements.
I haven't played it, I'd like to but I think that train has sailed. What I've read about it's vaunted psychological symbolism didn't seem all that earth shaking, so I doubt it'd grab me anymore. Pity. It definately is interesting and different. Yahtzee Croshaw thinks it's an all time great piece of game writing.
june gloom on 29/8/2008 at 23:30
whoa whoa whoa back the truck up
Silent Hill 1, I will easily grant that its plot is convoluted and difficult to understand- it took me 3 years and a guide on gamefaqs to make sense of it- but Silent Hill 2, its plot, and its symbolism are much, much more overt and easy to make sense of. Friends of mine who have trouble understanding basic concepts as how to avoid addiction to marijuana and passing classes by actually going grasped the plot and what was going on quite easily.
And if you don't? Well, that's what discussion is for. Games like Silent Hill, Deus Ex, and yes, Metal Gear Solid (specifically the ending of Sons of Liberty as the rest is fairly straightforward) deserve discussion. Isn't that the point of this silly fucking medium? To elevate it into an art form? I'm tired of people thinking that if you can't understand everything by the time the movie, game or book is halfway through, then the story is TOO COMPLEX. "this 'citizen kane' is not nearly moe (japanese for sexually attractive) enough i am not going to watch it" "this book is boring why hasn't henry sutpen drawn his katana sword yet" "the illiad? more like NOT ENOUGH NINJITSU"
God. Fuck that shit. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think any story that actually requires you to research and discuss aspects of it to fully understand it is worth its weight in gold. There's convoluted, incomprehensible, bullshit plots- i.e. the last third of Fahrenheit, or since I'm bitching about books too, anything Neal Stephensen writes, fuck that asshole- and there's stuff that will not necessarily make complete sense until you play it or read it or watch it a couple of times, peeling back the layers of the plot- but once you do, it all falls into place. No, not immediately understanding the entirety of Silent Hill 2 doesn't automatically mean you're dumb, but completely dismissing it because you couldn't figure out the basic plot on the first try (a plot that actually makes things pretty god damn transparent if you pay attention does.
Muzman on 29/8/2008 at 23:46
I was talking about the series kinda at the start there, sorry. But I was mostly talking about SH2, Yahtzee was specific about that one being the king.
Clarity isn't really what I'm on about though. I doubt ZB has any real trouble understanding what's going on, he just doesn't care and so all the knotty connections and meanings everyone loves are as nothing.
I'm just guessing though, like, a lot, and probably should keep my trap shut.
van HellSing on 30/8/2008 at 03:32
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Oh gosh, oh golly yes, I'm such a fool for listing some of the most common reward mechanisms in game design.
Yes, Silent Hill 2 would be so much better if James ran around with a shrink ray. So would Myst for that matter.
Quote:
Well if you don't play it for the gameplay, and you don't play it for the story, then what do you play it for?
Where did I say I don't play it for the story?
ZylonBane on 30/8/2008 at 13:47
Quote Posted by Muzman
I was talking about the series kinda at the start there, sorry. But I was mostly talking about SH2, Yahtzee was specific about that one being the king.
While I normally agree with Yahtzee, his views on what constitutes good storytelling in a videogame seem a bit odd. He loves SH2 (which has entire web pages dedicated to explaining WTF was going on), but doesn't like Planescape: Torment, a game with one of the most highly-regarded stories in the history of CRPGs.
Quote Posted by van HellSing
Where did I say I don't play it for the story?
When you acted confused that someone might expect plot advancement in SH2 as a reward mechanism for overcoming an obstacle.
Wandering around in a state of ignorance for hours and hours, then getting the entire story in a single cutscene dump at the end, is not what most people consider to be playing a game for the story.
june gloom on 30/8/2008 at 15:26
ITT ZylonBane discovers hyperbole, fails to qualify statement, is regarded as being an ass, business as usual
ercles on 30/8/2008 at 15:28
Quote Posted by dethtoll
God. Fuck that shit. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think any story that actually
requires you to research and discuss aspects of it to fully understand it is worth its weight in gold.
I get the fact that there is hyperbole involved here, but come on. Surely good game design should at least include all of the information required to tease out a story without requiring extra research.
Plus, considering how terrible the plot handling in almost all computer games is, at this point I'd just settle for something mildly origional and well scripted.
