Vivian on 20/6/2016 at 23:36
ugggggh who are the eurocrats, which banks, what
dickturpin23 on 20/6/2016 at 23:48
"From the cold way in which Germany consigned Greece to eternal debt slavery"
That's the line you don't like isn't it? Because you know lazy non-tax paying greek bastards. Alright eternal debt slavery is too strong a word, but the point is, you can see where things are headed for the southern european countries inside the eurozone.
caffeinatedzombeh on 20/6/2016 at 23:53
Quote Posted by Vivian
Balancing infinite potential problems like that is a vortex, you can't win arguments in there.
Probably not, but remember that this isn't about the next 6 months or 5 years it's about the next 50. Plus I'm not trying to win an argument so much as explain to some extent why I'm intending to vote leave on Thursday.
I agree that leaving does carry a far higher risk in the short term (I think it's pretty small but it's still a lot bigger than "very little"), you're pretty much guaranteed there will be some disruption. Is that going to be better or worse than when the EU finishes putting Greece into the sort of debt that'd have people organising concerts in Hyde Park if you did it to somewhere in Africa and moves onto whoever's next in line? Is it going to be better or worse than the EU having its own army?
I don't know and I'm not all that sure I want to find out.
Vivian on 20/6/2016 at 23:55
Are you talking to me? (Sorry, @dick Turpin) If so, don't presume to put words in my mouth, that's really fucking annoying.
Hang on, zombeh, you don't want to find out if it's going to be better OR worse? So what, you're voting to stop existing or something? I think I'm too tired for this.
caffeinatedzombeh on 21/6/2016 at 00:13
I think I'm far to tired to make any sort of coherent point.
faetal on 21/6/2016 at 08:08
The thing which worries me is this outdated notion people seem to have that the UK is going to be a major player outside of the EU such that long term, we'll be OK. Watch the video I linked above. Listen carefully to the arguments. Remember that the UK burned its manufacturing and resource sectors because they gave too much leverage to the working classes. In my opinion, the UK's USP from an economic perspective is its financial sector and not in any way which benefits ordinary folk. We have, bizarrely, one of the world's foremost money laundering centres and tax havens in the form of the City of London. A lot of the weight which the UK pulls internationally is in granting access to various EU countries via its financial institutions. That will vanish overnight when the UK breaks ties. The economy will almost certainly tank, because the <2% of public money which goes to EU membership will not outweight the loss in tax revenue from lost trade.
I've yet to see an argument for the UK's long term economic health which isn't some vague, far away notion of "well the UK is great isn't it?". Nothing tangible mentioned at all about what our actual economic capacity is, just daydreams of greatness.
scumble on 21/6/2016 at 08:42
Quote Posted by caffeinatedzombeh
I think I'm far to tired to make any sort of coherent point.
Literally or Internet "debate" fatigue?
Chimpy Chompy on 21/6/2016 at 08:58
Quote Posted by heywood
First he won the referendum on the Alternative Vote, then Scottish Independence, and now presumably EU Exit. Not only does he win points for fulfilling campaign promises, with every victory he cuts the legs out of another populist movement.
The AV referendum wasn't a populist movement, I'm not sure many british people even really cared about voting reform (sadly). It was one the Liberal Democrats's criteria for entering into a coalition government with the Tories.
N'Al on 21/6/2016 at 09:17
I'm not sure why people mention Greece in this context? The Greece issue is a Eurozone issue - i.e. related to the common currency - which the UK is not currently a part of, so their leaving the European Union will have no discernible impact on the matter either way.
faetal on 21/6/2016 at 09:22
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
The AV referendum wasn't a populist movement, I'm not sure many british people even really cared about voting reform (sadly). It was one the Liberal Democrats's criteria for entering into a coalition government with the Tories.
Wasn't helped by the fact that a lot of people were hoping for proportional representation (and which the Lib Dems suggested would be the case). It seems fairly likely that this was diluted to the less advantageous, desirable and simple AV as a way to make it easier to make it disappear. I think if PR had been on the table as originally suggested, it may have gone through.
