caffeinatedzombeh on 21/6/2016 at 10:22
Quote Posted by scumble
Literally or Internet "debate" fatigue?
Literally, attempting to type anything that makes any sense at 1am is beyond me these days. I am not as young as I used to be.
caffeinatedzombeh on 21/6/2016 at 10:24
Quote Posted by faetal
Watch the video I linked above.
I don't particularly disagree with anything he said, most of what I might criticise if I knew more about what I was talking about is largely a result of it being a 20 minute lecture. My experience of the single market is that it's several different ones with different regulations in most member states, the general shape of things is very similar but the details are different everywhere. Perhaps I'm wrong to assume that it's like that with everything else and perhaps nearly everything is completely the same everywhere.
Above all I agree that pretty much all official campaigning from all involved has been at best based on things that are sortof kinda true from a certain point of view if you squint a bit. It's depressing that none of them seem to think that the best thing to do is make everyone as informed as possible so they can actually make a decision.
faetal on 21/6/2016 at 10:26
The problem is more one of media. There is all kinds of debate happening, but the debate you get to see and hear is defined by the varying amounts of emphasis decided by the media. What's frustrating is that the major outlets are just focusing on Conservative party Remain vs Conservative party Leave, which covers probably most of the dishonest campaigning and hence why a lot of the public see it as a giant 50/50 damned if you do/don't shitfest.
Starker on 21/6/2016 at 10:26
Quote Posted by faetal
I've yet to see an argument for the UK's long term economic health which isn't some vague, far away notion of "well the UK is great isn't it?". Nothing tangible mentioned at all about what our actual economic capacity is, just daydreams of greatness.
Ironically, it might make the UK smaller instead, as Scotland might leave the UK in the future to rejoin the EU. I suppose "let's make Britain England again" isn't quite as catchy a slogan, though.
caffeinatedzombeh on 21/6/2016 at 10:34
Quote Posted by faetal
The problem is more one of media.
Partly. I don't really read, watch or listen to a lot of it though so my exposure to it all is either 2nd hand through threads like this one (though generally less sensible) or from the utter crap that gets shoved through my letterbox.
Vivian on 21/6/2016 at 10:38
These guys are good if you want some bare-bones, just the facts stuff. Unaffiliated, OpEd-free, charity-supported fact-checking organisation. They seem on the level, but if you find any inherent biases let me know.... (
https://fullfact.org/)
scumble on 21/6/2016 at 10:40
Those adaptive politicians... Part of the problem is that humans are not generally wired for detail or deliberation. Too easy to influence. This isn't the only issue where any attempts a getting unbiased views is difficult.
faetal on 21/6/2016 at 10:41
Quote Posted by caffeinatedzombeh
Partly. I don't really read, watch or listen to a lot of it though so my exposure to it all is either 2nd hand through threads like this one (though generally less sensible) or from the utter crap that gets shoved through my letterbox.
The media influences what happens on forums too. For every person willing to do fact-checking, there are at least 50 who will just parrot the opinion of their news outlet of choice. The reason media is so powerful is because it gets to design the public conversation. So much of the arguments being counter-argued are only there because that's how the media have framed the discussion. So rather than people taking a proper look at the pros and cons of in vs out, we instead have to talk about immigration, membership fees and sovereignty.
Vivian on 21/6/2016 at 10:47
Yeah but unfortunately it's Rupert Murdoch's wrinkly old shitbag hands pulling the strings rather than Eliza Cassan
