Gryzemuis on 25/6/2016 at 13:37
Quote Posted by faetal
So basically there is no point talking to you unless the words out of my mouth are "I agree"? Got it. I'll ignore you from now on.
No. You don't need to agree with me. But I don't need to agree with you too.
When politicians are talking, I wanna see actions before I believe words. Words are cheap. Most of the stuff politicians say will not happen. Only when stuff is written down, e.g. in the form of a law, and people have put signatures, then those words might have some value.
E.g. I am not convinced yet that the UK will leave the EU. See my post are few pages back. The referendum was non-binding. Only Cameron said: "I will respect the outcome". He did not say: "I'll change the referendum into a binding one". The outcome isn't what he wanted. So he quit the same day. Someone else will be in charge. And that someone will never have said he will respect the outcome. That new someone might find a way to spin things in such a way that he thinks he will have satisfied the nay-sayers, but there is no need to step out of the EU. I'm not saying this will happen 100% for sure. But there is a big chance. I think this scenario is more likely than the UK really getting out.
Gryzemuis on 25/6/2016 at 13:56
Quote Posted by SubJeff
Look - this was a democratic decision and democracy won. It's done now and lots of people had lots of reasons to vote whichever way they did. You have to respect that.
I'm happy you think that way.
It seems lots of remain-people want to change the democratic process. "Get rid of referenda!". "Change the rules so that if the people I disagree with don't have 75% of the votes, things will go my way. (And if they do get 75%, we'll change it into 90%)". "Get a new referendum, and we'll best of out 3". It reminds me a bit of the Republicans in the US. When they didn't get their way in 2008, they basically said: "fuck it, we're talking the ball and we're going home. We're gonna vote against every new law Obama proposes, we're not even gonna look to see if we like the law". Childish. Bad losers.
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The things is this; there are now three important bits of information coming out. 1. The Leave campaign are already backtracking on things they said all along.
Spin by the media. All that happened (afaik) is that Boris said: "let's not rush things". There was an aweful lot of spin before the referendum. I expect the spin to continue full force.
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2. Businesses really are moving out
The referendum was on Thursday. The outcome was publish on Friday. It's now Saturday. The weekend. Businesses are already moving out now ? During the weekend ?
The link that Harvester posted was from De Volkskrant. I've read that paper for 20 years. (Until they refused to deliver at my house). They are pro-EU no matter what. They are also spinning the news to help our current government. That newspaper article is about how the spokesman of a city council member said "yes, some chinese company really asked questions at our city hall about moving their office". One company. Only inquiring. Some time ago. It's not even the councilguy himself who bothered to talk to the press.
The other guy they quote is a Dutch guy based in Amsterdam, who has a consultancy firm advising other companies on how to do business with Chinese companies. Of course he's gonna say "yeah, the chinese are all moving from London to Amsterdam. Come talk to me for advise".
Are you all so gullible ?
Do you all think people only say things because it's for the greater good ? And that politicians and business man always speak the truth ?
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3. It's becoming clearer and clearer that large swathes of the Leave voters didn't understand what they were voting for really, beyond "I'm proud of my country. We won the war. Too many non-English in my local park on a Saturday" and "I don't want Muslims coming from Europe."
Guess what. The majority of the remain-voters probably also didn't know exactly what they were voting for. They problem thought "I wanna be able to go to Marbella without asking for a visum". Well, you could do that before 1992 too, couldn't you ? They probably thought "I love the French and the German, so I'm gonna vote remain". Or they just thought "I wanna be a decent world-citizen, I don't wanna be a nazi xenophobe old dumb guy, so I'll have to vote remain if I wanna be hip".
That's democracy for ya. Dumb people voting dumb things to fuck themselves over. Happens all the time. Big deal.
What's the alternative ? Smart people making the decisions for the dumb people ? That's fascism, imho. Even a representative parliamentary democracy (yeah, this is probably not a proper english word) has aspects of that. The elected people making decisions that go against the will of the people that they represent. This is happening a lot in Europe right now, when talking about EU stuff. And a lot of voters are sick of that. Elected officials can sometimes do stuff that their voters don't want. But if they do it all the time, and about important stuff, they will get punished for it some day.
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It's real, is't dumb as hell.
That's democracy for you.
Get over it.
The world doesn't always have to optimal or optimized. We don't need to do anything to maximize profits. I rather see an honest world than an optimized world.
Harvester on 25/6/2016 at 14:15
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
The link that Harvester posted was from De Volkskrant. I've read that paper for 20 years. (Until they refused to deliver at my house). They are pro-EU no matter what. They are also spinning the news to help our current government. That newspaper article is about how the spokesman of a city council member said "yes, some chinese company really asked questions at our city hall about moving their office". One company. Only inquiring. Some time ago. It's not even the councilguy himself who bothered to talk to the press.
The other guy they quote is a Dutch guy based in Amsterdam, who has a consultancy firm advising other companies on how to do business with Chinese companies. Of course he's gonna say "yeah, the chinese are all moving from London to Amsterdam. Come talk to me for advise".
Look, believe what you want, but don't spread misinformation. The article mentions several companies, not one, and that they aren't just inquiring, they already have specific plans. And yes, there's a spokesperson, that happens all the time because council members have better things to do than conduct interviews all day. I would actually consider it a bad thing if council members spent large parts of their days talking to the press instead of governing the city.
Gryzemuis on 25/6/2016 at 14:30
That was my interpretation of that article.
Something some people said. No facts, no proof.
But of course, my interpretation is wrong. And yours, or the interpretation by the journalist who wrote it, is right. Because you guys know what is right for the british people. The majority of brits can't be trusted to make such important decisions. Because they didn't understand what was at stake. They didn't understand the question. They didn't understand what the EU is. Such important matters should be left to people who know what they are talking about. I understand now.
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“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
Am I an infant, and imbecile, or maybe just a pet ?
Starker on 25/6/2016 at 14:42
So, instead of basing your worldview on facts, you will bend the facts to suit your worldview? This is not some postmodern piece of art subject to be interpreted any which way, it's a pretty clear article on what's happening. And there are others.
I think I've had quite enough of this. It's like talking to a wall.
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Am I an infant, and imbecile, or maybe just a pet ?
Based on your posts, you look more like the tyrant, actually...
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Or you could make this conclusion: young people between 18 and 24 have no frigging clue about politics. They are easily bribed by cheap and simple carrots like, uh, I don't even know what those carrots would be. "You can now more easily study abroad" or "you don't need to show your passport when you go to Marbella". While staying ignorant of all the downsides of being in the EU. I think that is more likely. Who of you knew more about politics and the world when you were 18 than you know now ?
So you could also say: "Thanks old farts, for saving the future of those dumb kids".
Harvester on 25/6/2016 at 14:47
EDIT: meant for Gryzemuis.
Yeah I don't know what you're on about, and I'm pretty much done with you.
Not once have I even given my opinion on the Brexit referendum in this thread. The only thing I did is call you out because you're misrepresenting what's being said in that article, which anyone can verify by running Google translate. It has nothing to do with my interpretation, you should just be honest about what the article says. It's also got nothing to do with the journalist's interpretation. There's no interpretation, it's not an op-ed piece, it's just a report of what people are saying. The guy hears something, he puts it in the paper.
And yeah, a spokesperson for a council member says something that's newsworthy, and the newspaper prints it. That's called journalism. De Volkskrant is pro EU, that's true, but they're just reporting something interesting that the spokesperson said that can have some consequences for the Dutch economy.
I would trust De Telegraaf not to print something like this, because they're anti EU and because it's a worthless rag that's not worth the paper it's printed on. They would just omit stories like these from their newspaper because the type of person that reads De Telegraaf likes to be told what to think, and doesn't like their beliefs challenged.
Any decent paper just prints information that's newsworthy, like this story. I'm not even a big fan of De Volkskrant, but if I ran a newspaper, I would print this too, because it has news value.
Renzatic on 25/6/2016 at 18:14
Quote Posted by Red_Breast
Would anybody care to suggest the day to day thought processes of people like Adam from Manchester, from the BBC Victoria Derbyshire show. How on earth can you choose to vote leave one day and regret the decision later when you find out you voted for the winning side. Maybe, like me, he's a Labour supporter, but he thought voting leave would be sticking it to the (Cameron) man?
I think it's due to the fact that some people never thought it'd come to pass, only ever considering the possibility of leaving the EU as a distant abstract. The pollsters showed a strong, consistent lead for remain all the way up to the penultimate hour, so there was no reason to expect otherwise.
They decided to screw around, voted leave as some sort of tongue-in-cheek, passive aggressive protest against something or other, and hey, guess what? THEIR VOTES COUNTED!
Slasher on 25/6/2016 at 18:33
Well I for one am
strongly reconsidering my irony vote for Cthulu in November's election now.
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