Gryzemuis on 15/7/2016 at 12:44
1 In 5 Polish people involved in a car accident has drank too much.
1 In 30 Dutch people involved in a car accident has drank too much.
Source: (
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/polen-veroorzaken-vaker-ongevallen) (Oh, just now I saw that those numbers are from 2010).
Also, according to our Ministry of Traffic, Poles cause relatively more traffic accidents.
Quote Posted by faetal
.... and are more productive than the average British citizen (demonstrated as percentage who start business and percentage who claim benefits).
Nice.
These are the numbers for the Netherlands from end of 2014.
As given by our official "(
https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2015/31/zeven-van-de-tien-somaliers-in-de-bijstand) Central Buro of Statistics".
Number of people on wellfare, percentage by nationality.
Inline Image:
http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/CBSsomalie.jpgYou were right about the Polish. They use less often wellfare-benefits than the Dutch themselves.
Of course I won't be asking for any foreigners to be expelled from NL or from the EU. Or any such non-sense. And I won't hold any inidivuals accountable for anything on a macro-scale. But don't tell me that all immigrants are blessings for society.
The real reason we have economic immigrants from countries where we have no historic ties with, is to drive the cost of labor down. This benefits the upper class and the establishment. It has terrible consequences for the lower class and even the middle class. I can not understand how anyone can call themselves socialist, progressive or politically left when they applaud mass-immigration of cheap labor. But for some reason, it's the left who are the biggest fanboys of mass economic immigration.
You can not have a wellfare-state if you invite the whole world to come and join in on the fun. The left is actively working on abolishing our western wellfare-states. It boggles my mind.
faetal on 15/7/2016 at 14:05
Maybe the Dutch are more racist when employing? I'm saying that's necessarily the case, just that there is more than 1 reason for those people to be claiming benefits.
I know in France that there are some shockingly racist employers. A translator friend of mine used to work for someone whose first pass at a pile of CVs was to remove the ones with foreign names.
The UK, for all of its insidious undercurrent of xenophobia is actually one of the least racist countries I've visited. Sure there are plenty of racists, but there is such stigma attached to racism that people are super cautious to avoid the label. I also used to be in a relationship with someone who worked in HR dealing with equality and there are strict quotas and audits in the UK which compare the rate of applicants of varying ethnicity being employed / disciplined / fired versus that group's frequency in the population. If the discrepancies are statistically significant and / or trend on anything suspicious, there are huge penalties to be had.
Is The Netherlands both racially tolerant and adherent to strict employment equality?
Gryzemuis on 15/7/2016 at 14:56
Quote Posted by faetal
Is The Netherlands both racially tolerant and adherent to strict employment equality?
Sure. Employment laws say you can not discriminate on any grounds.
But of course many immigrants (from non historical immigration countries) nowadays hardly have had any education. E.g. many immigrants from Morocco can hardly read or write. Certainly not latin alphabet. They don't wanna do the lowest type of jobs anymore (factory work, cleaning, agriculture) because it hardly pays better than wellfare. Just like the native Dutch don't wanna do those jobs anymore. And these days, those jobs are mostly done by Eastern Europeans. They don't have the luxury of applying for wellfare and refusing to work, as they need to have worked 6 or 12 months non-stop before being allowed to apply for wellfare. The previous decade we had a immigration wave of Somalians and Ethiopians and Eritreans. They also have a repuation of not wanting to work. Nor really bothering to learn speak Dutch. If you are an employer, and you have the choice between someone who doesn't really want to do the job, doesn't speak the language, can hardly read or write, or you can hire some Eastern European with more work-ethics, who speaks English or German, speaks a bit of Dutch, and has learned a trade (carpenter, plumber, etc) then the choice is easy. Is that racist ?
Imho one of the biggest problems is language. The British aren't happy that they attract so many immigrants. But at least lots of immigrants speak English. And the ones who speak English probably have had some form of education.
In NL we don't have that education. Hardly any immigrants who come to NL speak Dutch. And if you are not 99% sure you're gonna stay in NL for the rest of your life, many people don't bother to learn Dutch. Can't really blame them there. But if they don't wanna stay long term, we shouldn't give them passports. I would rather see people getting work permits for a few years, then an equivalent for a green card (we don't have such a thing). And then, in the very end, after they've been here a decade or so, and have shown they can take care of themselves and, most importantly, speak our language on a reasonable level, then I'm happy to see them get a Dutch passport. But for some reason, the language requirement hardly exists. It exists on paper, but not in reality.
If you try to explain the graph I showed by looking for racist opinions of employers, I think you won't succeed. Lack of education, not speaking the language, illiteracy, unwillingness to work when they can get wellfare money close enough to minimum wage, etc, those are more plausible reasons why some of those groups have higher unemployment. E.g. I am not surprised to see a difference between Turkish (16%) and Morrocan (27%) unemployment. Even the numbers from Eastern Africa are not unexpected.
I have always learned the solution for social inequality is education. Education takes some time (1-2 generations) to have a noticeable effect. However, if you keep bringing in new uneducated people all the time, then "education as the plan" can never work.
faetal on 15/7/2016 at 17:32
Language issues could explain the differences sure, but any attempt to explain it by unwillingness to work is baseless without some form of backup.
Tony_Tarantula on 21/7/2016 at 20:38
Quote Posted by faetal
Pays to communicate clearly with controversial topics. It's way too easy to let the mask slip and then claim
post facto to have been misunderstood.
Do you have literally ANY other arguments than calling people racists?
In this particular case they're one on and the same thing. There is no reason that a Muslim can't be an extremist, even more so when the ideology itself lends itself to extremism and is dominated by extremist sects.
Again you claim to know all about tolerance and all about the immigrants as if you are some kind of expert, yet I who spent way too much of his life living and working in extremely conservative Muslim countries( and no, NOT living on combat outpost....living and working with the local government agencies) knows absolutely nothing.
Quite frankly I understand this society and its culture far better than you ever will, and the fact that you gravite towards the state-sponsored opinion doesn't change that. You can call me and everyone else who disagrees with you a "racist" as many hundreds of times as you like and it won't make you more correct.
Furthermore you appear to be deliberately and dishonestly setting up strawmen. Here is what I have repeteadely said and have to say again: these people come from a SCAVENGER culture. Life is extremely difficult, and you generally do not survive there by being a good and upstanding citizen. We're talking about countries where anything not nailed down will get stolen, if it's nailed down you'll get shot and then have it stolen, government officials are free to do whatever the fuck they like until some other warlord overthrows them, women are treated like objects (I recall one conversation with a guy who, no shit, was talking about how he was hoping to get enough money to one day buy himself a wife), and if you travel outside your area you will be stopped at a "checkpoint" and forced to pay a "toll".
It is an environment where the economic desperation naturally facilitate the emergence of strongmen, the use of extremist ideologies to facilitate them, and people doing whatever they have to do in order to survive.
All of that are strong reasons as to why we should be merciful to them and gradually ease them into a 1st world society....they're also strong reasons why it is asinine to turn several million of them loose with no integration efforts.
Quote:
Immigrants are not a problem, they contribute to the economy, provide amazing skills diversity and are more productive than the average British citizen (demonstrated as percentage who start business and percentage who claim benefits).
Classic example of an artificial "either or" fallacy, and again I know you aren't so stupid as to have made that mistake accidentally. It is a deliberate attempt to mislead.
NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE EQUAL. There is a massive difference between the ones who are coming over looking to build a better life for themselves, and the black sheep of the family who was sent over to get him off of his father's hands...not a hypothetical situation, disposing of the extra or problem children via immigration, militia service, etc is more common than you would think in traditionalist Muslim nations.
That last bit is one thing that it occurs to me that you are unlikely to understand...and that is your biggest argument weakness. You are so wedded to your own point of view that you very rarely even attempt to understand the environment that other people live in, to include migrants. You are viewing them all through the lens of your own experiences as a middle class white person in the UK/France, when in reality the traits you ascribe to them have almost nothing to do with the reality they have experienced or the beliefs they hold dear.
Tony_Tarantula on 21/7/2016 at 20:52
Quote Posted by SD
Perhaps that was the thought process your friend's Arab acquaintances used when accosting a citizen of the nation whose armies have turned vast areas of their homelands into rubble.
You're a moron. For many reasons:
1) That happens to a LOT of people, not just Americans.
2) They didn't even know he was American. The guy is a native born Arab and looks it.
3) They didn't give a shit about anything else than whether or not he was a muslim.
4) Again, IT WAS AN ARAB ON ARAB INCIDENT. This wasn't racial, it was religious.
gee
Just out of curiousity, how many interactions have you actually had with economic refugees or similarly impoverished migrants from conservative, Muslim nations. It's a bit of a narrow category I know but it also describes the majority of the refugees.
Quote:
Blowjob's now foreign secretary and May's PM. In the absence of any effective routes of protest I'll settle for lashing out at anyone available. Tony the tarantula, you're an ignorant tool who fully deserves to live in this country. Do a headstand in your toilet.
Fuck off. All the problems that Britain is having now? They are a DIRECT RESULT of your government's left wing, globalist policies.
The irony here is that for people like me there is now a huge opportunity for cash to be made. Remember when I was saying that it wasn't the end of the world? Take a look at the FTSE 100 now and then. Also take a look GBP/EU and GBP/USD. USD is still the best currency overall to have, but GBP is testing resistance now. If it doesn't break through low expect a rebound.
You know what it means if the currency goes up? That I was CORRECT that capital would eventually flow into Britain once the noise quieted.
For someone who is so crazy and stupid, my forecasts and predictions are correct a hell of a lot of the time.
Vivian on 21/7/2016 at 21:26
Whoa, who woke up lord frothula?
SD on 21/7/2016 at 22:11
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
You're a moron. For many reasons.
Go fuck yourself Tony. You're an unbearably stupid, vacuous twat who should have been shitcanned from this forum a long time ago. Go and find some SJW forums that you can shit your cretinous right-wing dribble all over, I'm sure they'll give you the attention you crave on a much more regular basis.
Vivian on 21/7/2016 at 22:57
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
For someone who is so crazy and stupid, my forecasts and predictions are correct a hell of a lot of the time.
Which ones are these again?
faetal on 21/7/2016 at 23:13
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Do you have literally ANY other arguments than calling people racists?
Haven't called you a racist, I gave a specific scenario which would mean you were xenophobic and said that the onus was on you to communicate more clearly if this is what you meant. The fact that you've yet to do so is interesting.
Quote:
In this particular case they're one on and the same thing. There is no reason that a Muslim can't be an extremist, even more so when the ideology itself lends itself to extremism and is dominated by extremist sects.
You were criticising tolerance, as if it meant somehow tolerating extremism. Your post strongly implied, or at least left definite room for you to mean "these people" as in North African Muslim immigrants, which is the
only descriptor you used in your argument.
Quote:
Again you claim to know all about tolerance and all about the immigrants as if you are some kind of expert, yet I who spent way too much of his life living and working in extremely conservative Muslim countries( and no, NOT living on combat outpost....living and working with the local government agencies) knows absolutely nothing.
Every time you bust this weak shit out. You can't self-qualify or claim that you have unique knowledge or experience. It's possible to work in those situations and be a fuckwit. Either state your arguments logically and clearly or put up with some flak, because frankly I can't prove or disprove your "I'm THE authority on tolerance" credentials, so they're irrelevant in conversation. Either back up your point with substance, or be called on your shit. Basically, regardless of whatever background you claim, if you come across as a xenophobe - that's what I'm calling it. Your slightly more lofty equivalent of "some of my best friends are Muslim" means zilch in dialectical conversation. Not to mention that you have zero fucking clue about my life experience (and I'm not introducing the relevant bits like some kind of laminated Sherrif of Tolerance Town nothing argument) and thus have zero basis to declare yourself immune from having to argue your side due to some imaginary authority on making broad generalisations about an entire culture.
Next time, try asking an adult to read your posts before hitting send.
