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Kolya on 10/4/2017 at 22:28

Again: why is it apparently okay to wear a thug life shirt while not beating on burning trash, but wearing a feminist shirt while not currently defending women's rights isn't? How does one of these rile you up more?

Seemsv to me that you're holding the latter to a higher standard. Which means that you're secretly moralist. Which makes you a hypocrite.

SubJeff on 10/4/2017 at 22:53

Quote Posted by Vivian

Yeah, it says a lot about your priorities if you think that's something worth getting wound up about? With all the shit that's going down, people maybe being slightly too keen on social justice and stuff is what pissed you off? Mate. You've mentioned SJWs previously though. I remembered it just because it seemed such a toolish thing to say.

I'm a big fan of "slippery slope" and "thin end of the wedge" as descriptors of the situation.

My problem with all this isn't that people have causes or stances or morals or whatever, it's that it's all become so confused with what's fashionable and what people are whining about (and by whining I mean complaining about nothing/choosing to be offended by non-offensive things) that eventually bullshit gets taken seriously.

And that's when we get Newspeak.

That Hull Uni decree didn't come out of thin air. It's been years in the making. It's terrifying. If you're not terrified by all this you can't have thought about it. They are literally telling people what words are acceptable! And it doesn't even make sense! Foreman is not the same thing as supervisor! It is real Newspeak. It's coming from a University. The left wing libtard (yes, libtard) agenda behind this terrifies me.

Did you know that the BMA (the BMA!!) has guidance for their staff such that the use of the term "expectant mother" is banned for fear of offending someone who is pregnant and transgender? This is biology. This is how we've evolved and yet...

So yes, I think it IS something to get wound up about and so should you.

Koyla - a thug life t-shirt isn't meant to indicate you're a thug. Whatsmore it's a GOOD thing if people wearing them don't act like thugs. The feminist shirt is meant to make a statement. If you can't grasp this I can't help you.

Briareos H on 11/4/2017 at 02:42

I really don't think virtue signalling hurts anyone. At worst, it shows someone who subscribes to a greater movement without giving much thought to critical thinking but their hearts are definitely in the right place. Of course there must be a few self-righteous idiots who are also doing it to get that sweet radfem pussy, but I hope that's an extreme minority.

On the other hand, there's also a depressing amount of people who do signal to the world that they subscribe to a close-minded ideology, through male tears/pepe shirts for example.

demagogue on 11/4/2017 at 03:48

I don't think the signalling is the problem per se, but being punished if you don't signal, well, legal punishment (social exclusion isn't illegal). I mean the extreme version was the political officers/culture police in communist countries, where the entire society was built around political signalling, back when they were called fellow travellers. That's far from the position we're in now. But if an academic got fired because she didn't properly give the right political signal, that'd be a problem.

Of course it's still fair game to call out altright trolls using free speech as a cover to say terrible things, although nobody is locking them up.

And just to keep things in perspective, the current largest ills on the table are legal decisions by an altright movement which strip recognition of other groups.

Personally speaking, I feel like a refugee from our times and I don't sympathize with the rhetoric flying around on the left or right. Both sides are using really emotive language, drawing lines of us vs. them, and signalling. It's at odds with the stodgy political history in both the US and UK. My grandparents would have probbably found it rude to even ask what a neighbor's politics was, and would try to avoid the topic and just show polite civility to everyone.

Edit. I wouldn't avoid the topic. But I try to be good about hearing everyone out and not getting into a fit, and I'd call out any dogma wherever I see it. I don't like dogma. I think that could sum up my position.

montag on 11/4/2017 at 03:51

Quote Posted by SubJeff

Koyla - a thug life t-shirt isn't meant to indicate you're a thug. Whatsmore it's a GOOD thing if people wearing them don't act like thugs. The feminist shirt is meant to make a statement. If you can't grasp this I can't help you.

What? A thug shirt doesn't make a statement? A statement that does or does not make the world we all share a better or worse place? If you can't grasp this I can't help you. Irony, thy name is SubJeff.

Kolya on 11/4/2017 at 05:24

@T_T, Subjeff: You're setting the moral standards for being a good person intentionally too high, so we can all share in your feelings of inadequacy.
In other words you're trying to drag everyone down to your level, to make yourself feel better, while doing nothing.

Well aren't you the social justice warrior?

SubJeff on 11/4/2017 at 07:05

No, I'm just being grumpy.

T-shirts don't matter. None of it matters.

I'll chill out now. deep breath aaaaaand relaaaax

Quote Posted by demagogue

Personally speaking, I feel like a refugee from our times and I don't sympathize with the rhetoric flying around on the left or right. Both sides are using really emotive language, drawing lines of us vs. them, and signalling.

Troooo.

I used to think I was left wing, then I thought I was more right wing than I'd realised.

Now I don't even know.

I still score exactly the same as Gandhi on this though: (https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2)

caffeinatedzombeh on 11/4/2017 at 19:36

I think a score somewhere around Gandhi means that you don't think abortion deserves the death penalty, that anyone should be allowed to dump whatever toxic waste they like anywhere or that being poor is some sort of crime.

It doesn't really ask any questions about things that actually matter from a UK perspective or at least not in a way that anyone who isn't a total git is going to give the answers that would differentiate people very much in any direction.

faetal on 11/4/2017 at 20:23

Quote Posted by SubJeff

VSers wear the shirt without being a feminist, without actually caring about the environment.

I'm curious to know how you would back this statement up. Are you monitoring people who wear / do certain things and determining what proportion of them live their life by the same ethics?
Because this smacks of hating an archetype you're projecting onto people who behave a certain way rather than some reasoned position on observed behaviour.

If you see someone wearing the T-shirt, I guess you're free to imagine how they spend their time and then apply that model to anyone who falls into a similar description. Doesn't make it real though.

Renzatic on 11/4/2017 at 20:26

Quote Posted by SubJeff

Virtue signalling isn't taking a stance though, it's wearing a shirt without ACTUALLY doing anything about it. That's the point, isn't it? VSers wear the shirt without being a feminist, without actually caring about the environment. These are the people that wear Greenpeace t-shirts because it's "cool" whilst scoffing down enough quinoa to feed a small village. It dilutes the real issues.

That reminds me of all those people I used to see around here who'd put Petzl stickers all over their cars, despite the fact they'd never climbed even a single rock in their entire lives.

Intolerable douches, the lot of them.