caffeinatedzombeh on 19/6/2016 at 20:27
As I understand it the EU is currently arguing with Switzerland about exactly what free movement means as the swiss version of it is about a million miles from what the EU wants. How that'll end up I've no idea.
As for the fishing, certainly there's much that could be done better and I'd be amazed if there wasn't a lot that's right about the way things are done now but accidentally catching the wrong fish is always going to happen until either people stop fishing completely or fish somehow learn that only one particular species should be in any bit of water at one time or not to swim into the net with the big "NO COD" sign on it. Regardless, eating it is a far better thing to do with it than chucking it over the side.
Your bbc article is ancient, rather out of date and accuses the EU of being a bit shit "But what happens to that advice when it goes up to the Council of Ministers - it's completely mis-managed."
MoroseTroll on 19/6/2016 at 20:39
Quote Posted by Vivian
Switzerland and Norway have to comply with most of the EU regulations and allow free movement anyway:
Maybe. But what will stop them if/when they think "kthxbye" to the EU, if the last one signs, say, TTIP or something else that they wouldn't like? Every agreement has part that says something like that, "In case of
disagreement..." You know, it's much harder to disagree when you travel on a large tandem.
Vivian on 19/6/2016 at 20:43
Quote Posted by caffeinatedzombeh
As I understand it the EU is currently arguing with Switzerland about exactly what free movement means as the swiss version of it is about a million miles from what the EU wants. How that'll end up I've no idea.
As for the fishing, certainly there's much that could be done better and I'd be amazed if there wasn't a lot that's right about the way things are done now but accidentally catching the wrong fish is always going to happen until either people stop fishing completely or fish somehow learn that only one particular species should be in any bit of water at one time or not to swim into the net with the big "NO COD" sign on it. Regardless, eating it is a far better thing to do with it than chucking it over the side.
Your bbc article is ancient, rather out of date and accuses the EU of being a bit shit "But what happens to that advice when it goes up to the Council of Ministers - it's completely mis-managed."
Yeah the 'oh well it's happened now' argument is always bullshit. If you eat it you'll just keep on catching it, and then there won't be any fish. If you reduce catch regulation, there will not be any fish. In fact, it's quite likely that there just won't be any fish anyway. Industrialised fishing on top of warming, acidification, microplastic pollution and fuck knows what else has knocked fish stocks down by 50% globally. What will UK regulation do about that problem that will be better than the CFP?
Yeah, it is a bit old, find a better article then?
Vivian on 19/6/2016 at 20:46
Quote Posted by MoroseTroll
Maybe. But what will stop them if/when they think "kthxbye" to the EU, if the last one signs, say, TTIP or something else that they wouldn't like? Every agreement has part that says something like that, "In case of
disagreement..." You know, it's much harder to disagree when you travel on a large tandem.
Well, they have to leave. As non-members they don't get much say in what goes on. As an EU member state at least you can pipe up with 'our population think this is bullshit', which is what france did about the TTIP. Unless Norway and Sweden are able to negotiate their own agreements with China and America and Russia and whatnot, they are going to be tied to what the EU does. I think it's better to at least have a say, don't you? Uh, on where the tandem is going to go?
MoroseTroll on 19/6/2016 at 21:08
Quote Posted by Vivian
As an EU member state at least you can pipe up with 'our population think this is bullshit', which is what france did about the TTIP.
I'm afraid the EU will eventually sign up the TTIP, no matter what France or any other its member did or will do.
Quote Posted by Vivian
Unless Norway and Sweden are able to negotiate their own agreements with China and America and Russia and whatnot, they are going to be tied to what the EU does.
Perhaps.
Quote Posted by Vivian
I think it's better to at least have a say, don't you?
I guess the smaller the EU member, the weaker his voice is. France is a big enough economy, Britain is too. But there is another economy (Germany) which is much bigger, so what good is to have a say, if the big ones can bellow, "Shut up, you little... one" :)?
Quote Posted by Vivian
Uh, on where the tandem is going to go?
You tell me, you're still in EU ;). I just see your large tandem going somewhere, that's it.
caffeinatedzombeh on 19/6/2016 at 21:15
Quote Posted by Vivian
What will UK regulation do about that problem that will be better than the CFP?
What it's already done about it is massively increase fish stocks. I'm unsure how much of the good stuff that's happened is related to the EU, certainly some of the bodies that organise it are at least partly funded by the bit of the UK's EU contribution that gets spent in the UK. I'm not sure how much of the (
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2009/23/contents) Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 is from the EU, certainly some of it relates to enforcing the EU's rules and penalties involved for breaching them.
(
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/apr/08/north-sea-cod-stocks-bounce-back-analysis-shows)
My understanding of the fishermen's moaning is that a: it'd be better *for them* if the UK's waters weren't open to EU fishing (the Spanish) and whilst you can't really argue with that you may or may not think that that's a good thing, b: that the spanish boats largely ignore the rules and the spanish don't enforce them which may or may not be very true and c: some of the EU rules on fishing are shit and the fish and people would be better off without some of them.
I think that a is certainly true, that there is considerable scope for improving b within the EU and that c is probably true and the EU might get around to doing something about it one day maybe.
faetal on 19/6/2016 at 21:29
Quote Posted by Manwe
And thanks for proving my point. God forbid someone could be against Europe precisely because it's a racist construction with arbitrary frontiers separating whites from the less desirable coloured people (Hint: some of the walls lining those frontiers would make Trump cream his pants), and because it is leading us into an inevitable conflict with a superpower (Hint: Russia is right on our doorstep, it's not in our best interest to antagonize them). But no all that is just too hard to understand for someone like you I guess, too many grey areas.
What the fuck are you talking about? I'm saying that Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are not likely to be doing much in favour of the working classes. Your weird rant about racism is tilting at windmills in the extreme.
