Collector Towers - TTLG Forums

Snakeskin on 15/10/2007 at 06:43

Well.. from a scientific point of view it is unlikely, because to excite electrons in air atoms very much energy is required, and i'm not even sure that the produced photons would have an energy in the visible light spectrum.
(air is invisible)
And to excite the atoms the energy produced would be in the GHz part, that is radio waves, which are extremely lacking in energy.

Also the air is severely lacking in free ions, and the molecules that are in it (O2 N2 and CO2) are all symmetric and very basic, and there is not much reaction going on between air atoms.

Well it could. What would that be? heat?

Since there is no such things as collector towers outside my window i think i prefer the non-scientific approach =)
magic is great in that way ^^
The problem of where the energy is collected from is easily solved if we imagine it beng drawn from another plane, the "aether".

jtr7 on 15/10/2007 at 07:32

Of course. I didn't say magic wasn't involved, just that the light may be a secondary aurora-like effect. I focused on the illumination, not what or how the towers collect. It doesn't mean I've denied magic.;)

DJ Riff on 15/10/2007 at 09:46

My two cents.

I think that collector towers are used for energy transmittion. Tesla coils (you can see that sparkling devices in Cragscleft, beginning of "Blackmail" and "Unwelcome Guest" Demo) are transmitters, and glowballs on towers are receivers. There are also some lanterns with antennas on their top (in mines usually). I think there's a glowball inside it — it can light up a tunnel, but for street lamp it is unsufficient, so it needs to be connected to the lamp to give the power to it. Tesla coils are powered by hydroelectric generators, you can see one at "Haunted Cathedral" mission near Keepers' Grotto.

As for the mechanists, I think they found this Hydrogenerator-Coil-Glowball-Lamp scheme less effective than Steamgenerator-Wire-Device. They just need more power for their lamps/engines/sentries etc. than old hammerite generators can provide and lossy Coil-Glowball line can transmit. Also, looks like copper was too expensive for Hammerites to make wires from it. They used it only for some "fancy" things — bells, altar ornaments etc. For Mechanists with their digging and drilling machines copper became much cheaper. And, of course, no need to run for priest to re-cast a spell if something goes wrong :rolleyes:

jtr7 on 15/10/2007 at 10:14

Thanks, DJ Riff. That compliments my thoughts on the matter. I like the idea of a connection with the Tesla coils. When I mentioned them, I hadn't thought it through, yet. I was concentrating on the fact that there are so few of the towers around, but I mentioned the Tesla coils to get them on the table.

And, personally speaking, my idea of magic in the Thief Universe has less to do with spell-casting and more to do with tapping into another tier of energy, but I know what you mean.

Snakeskin on 16/10/2007 at 16:32

Quote:

As for the mechanists, I think they found this Hydrogenerator-Coil-Glowball-Lamp scheme less effective than Steamgenerator-Wire-Device. They just need more power for their lamps/engines/sentries etc. than old hammerite generators can provide and lossy Coil-Glowball line can transmit. Also, looks like copper was too expensive for Hammerites to make wires from it. They used it only for some "fancy" things — bells, altar ornaments etc. For Mechanists with their digging and drilling machines copper became much cheaper. And, of course, no need to run for priest to re-cast a spell if something goes wrong :rolleyes:

I am sceptical to the transfer of electricity in this way.
Mainly because i think that the "magic" explanation should be left to things exclusive to the Thief world, and not used to explain phenomenon taht does not work in a useable way naturally in our world (tesla energy transfer).
Thus i think that magic could maybe be converted to electricity, since it is energy in a way, but not that the aether could be used as a means to transfer electricity via a magical form, to make the idea of tesla coils work.

We know that the "aether" exists, and that it allows several things:
garret's scout orbs to connect to his eye
communication between keepers (mainly assassins)
Probably communication to the servants from soulforge
(and this seems more likely than my initial thought on the matter, radio waves, since we know garret's eye uses the aether, and thus that the mechanists have constructed devices to connect to the aether)

However these antennae (greatly differing from the orbs on collector towers) are mechanist technology. They did not exist before the mechanist era, otherwise they would be used to a greater degree (if it already was hammer-tech).
Also as you state, the mechanists knew about aetherial transfer, but chose other power sources. Implying that it did not work, or as you say, was not effecient enough to transfer energy.

Also, hydrogenerators are a few tads more effective in producing energy than steam based technology, so i do not think that either the hammerites or the mechanists would throw it away. And the hydrogenerator also always requires a powerful water stream (hence teh construction of dams), and the City does not have any other powerful streams other than the river, located in the middle of the city. Thus the hydrogenerators could only be located there, not at the small canals.
I think the generators in Thief used in non-river locations are all steam-based. It is not logical that the mechanists should switch to somethign less efficient, instead it seems logical that the steam generator is much more portable (as in the children) also electricity is the same thing regardless of how it is being produced, so coming up with a new generator would not exclude previous ways of energy transfer..

(http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/design/steam.htm) - foryour viewing pleasure.

Also why are the collector towers named collector towers, and not recieving towers? It seems to imply that they are collecting something, rather than recieving energy from a certain tesla coil (or more) via a limited number of lines.

This however takes away the explanation for the "coil like" things in Thief.

Quote:

And, personally speaking, my idea of magic in the Thief Universe has less to do with spell-casting and more to do with tapping into another tier of energy, but I know what you mean.

Please explain your thoughts on spell-casting!

Solabusca on 17/10/2007 at 03:51

Simply put, my ideas about magic in the Thief universe are as follows:

* Existing coterminously with the world is a connected non-material plane of existence - a parallel dimension/substance commonly referred to as Aether.

* Different types of magical primal/elemental energy exist in the Aether - kind of like the building blocks of the material world. These energies flow through the Aether like winds, perhaps emanating from outside planes of existence like the Maw.

* Given the right conditions, pockets of Aethereal energies collect, and coalesce into the real-world, creating the various elemental crystals (this could also explain the presence of elementals, as the energies coalescing achieve a critical mass and create/summon an elemental). If you follow this analogy, Dark/Black energies may coalesce and allow for the spontaneous creation of undead.

* Mages and Priests have learned to channel these energies to create specific effects in the physical world. Mages tend to deal with the more material and base of the forces - the four elemental energies. Necromancers deal primarily with Dark forces.

Using their belief, Shamans tap into the verdant Green energies (most likely tapping into some of the elemental energies as well), and Hammerite priests learn the art of manipulating the Light/Borning energies.

I find that there is enough in-game evidence to support these conclusions, as follows:

* Collector towers are obviously tapping into and collecting some energy, and seem to be magical in nature.

* Aether is mentioned in connection to Garret's scouting orb; it follows that Aetherical transmission of energy exists within the Thief universe.

* The Thief universe is obviously one in which planar travel is possible - the Maw of Chaos is an alternate plane.

* Elemental crystals spontaneously generate in areas where conditions are appropriate: Earth crystals form where there is moss, grass, dirt and decay; Fire crystals form in forges, in places where molten lava flows, and in fireplaces; Water crystals form in rivers, ponds, puddles and fountains and Air crystals form where winds break on rooftops, or where air is forced through vents.

* Similarly, Zombies and other forms of undead seem to come into being where there are places of death, darkness and decay; perhaps negative psychic energies, dark emotions, untimely death and other tragedies have echoes in a psychoactive Aether, and sink into the dead bones until they, too, have enough energy to achieve critical mass and coalesce into the material world. Again, this negative emanation can also occur when someone desecrates a crypt (Hammer Haunt) or when something happens to infuse an area with Dark energy (Necromancers, or a powerful artefact like the Eye).

* Blessed object can be created in ROTC without the direct intervention of a priest - I'd suggest that the Light/Borning energies are the most ephemeral, and least likely to coalesce; Hammerites have constructed the Moon Pool to assist in the creation of blessed objects. As can be easily noted, not every Hammerite is a spell-caster - only those faithful who have learned the wisdom of the priesthood can tap into these energies.

* Vine arrows may be a result of Green energy coalescing in Pagan strongholds connected to the Maw. Similarly, Wisps may be Green elementals.

.j.

[EDIT TO ADD: I will note that the winds of magic model is loosely derived from the Warhammer Fantasy world, most particularly in dealing with the Undead - but as I looked more closely at the world of Thief, this model seemed to be a particularly close match to the way magic, and more particularly, magic-use seems to operate.

I would wager that where Mages learn rituals, gestures and incantations that allow them to tap into the energies they utilize, Pagan Shamans and Hammerite Priests learn various prayers, rituals and focusing methods that allow them to access the powers of their faith - in short, to achieve the same ends: changing the world through the force of their belief/will.]

jtr7 on 17/10/2007 at 05:14

Wheee!:thumb:

Solabusca on 17/10/2007 at 07:17

Well, it was a bit scattered, and not particularly well worded, but I'm tired. I figured I should set it out - again - in any case.

Oh, I should also note that I'd suspect that there are several different types of mage or wizard in the Thief-verse. The Brotherhood is made up of Elementalists, focusing on the control of the individual Elemental forces; I'm certain that there are other mages - hedge-wizards, illusionists, alchemists - that make use of the same forces with nowhere near the same degree of understanding or control.

Similarly, I'd also suggest that their are other tiers and varieties of magic - dark Precursor/Cthuloid rituals, for example; dark sorceries that summon extraplanar entities.

As another example, we can look at Glyph Magic, which seems to allow for greater control/power by further separating the user from the forces in question, using the glyphs as a channel, thus allowing them access to new vistas of power. In many cases the Glyphs seem to act as a conduit for mystic energy, allowing the desired effect to be sustained indefinately, it seems.

.j.

jtr7 on 17/10/2007 at 07:55

Many of your thoughts on these matters do coincide or match conclusions I've come to for my own fanfic in recent years. Of course, that makes me feel I'm on the "right" track, as it were. It's especially interesting to me since I've never roleplayed before. I've thrown in some ideas here that are not my firm conclusions.

Snakeskin on 17/10/2007 at 08:51

I tend to agree with both of you about the magic. Up until these discussions i haven't given the magic a serious thought, but it is clear that i need to heavily revise my initial ideas.. =)
Thanks to sola for this.

The only thing i want to discuss above are the definitio of the three last elements.

Leaf: if life is on it's own, and we have a colision etween the "nature" area betwen leaf and earth, waht exactly does leaf represent?

Light/Life: Is this supposed to be in the torso of the man in the book of ash? If light and darkness are both elements, i really really thing that they need to be opposites, and positioned opposite eachother.

Darkness/death: The definition should be pretty clear, but i think it would need to be placed opposite of light.