Cradle. Dear God... - TTLG Forums

theBlackman on 19/8/2009 at 00:21

For the Morgue, Moss both sides of the area. JUMP OVER the Zombie.

You can get really close to the table and the window, but I've not managed to completely ghost by. As soon as you jump, they alert.

Some missions are accepted as GHOSTED even if there are certain things that make it impossible. The one that comes to mind is Interference. The KO 8 guards eliminates a full ghost. But if you can do the rest of the mission undetected, it counts as a "Ghost".

If some missions require that you break the "ghost" tradition, and you complete the rest of the mission "ghosted" you get credit.

Check this: (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=30310)

If you already read it, I apologize.

jtr7 on 19/8/2009 at 00:21

There are tiers of ghosting and ghosting styles. For whole missions, it is black and white whether it can completely be ghosted or not, but that, of course, wouldn't mean a player doesn't ghost all they can, and according to the rules, if it's impossible, the player is not penalized.

Hexameron on 19/8/2009 at 01:19

Thanks tbm. I did try using moss around the puppet, but perhaps I didn't try jumping over.

As for the Official Ghost Rules, yes, I'm intimately familiar with them and the scenario you described.

Quote Posted by jtr7

For whole missions, it is black and white whether it can completely be ghosted or not, but that, of course, wouldn't mean a player doesn't ghost all they can, and according to the rules, if it's impossible, the player is not penalized.

Please don't think I'm trying to bicker here, but I'm not sure what you mean by penalized. If it's impossible, the attempt to ghost is a failure.

Rule No. 13 states: The entire mission must be ghosted to claim success. Of course you can still say you've ghosted only 2/3 of the mission or up until the Staff Tower. But I've noticed a number of comments from people who say they have ghosted the Cradle and to me that implies they have finished the mission adhering to all of the ghost rules.

Maybe I'm just not hip to the various interpretations or "tiers of ghosting" as jtr7 put it. For example, I noticed PotatoGuy said, "I had no problems ghosting on Normal." Well, to me, you can't ghost on Normal difficulty. There's the black and white thing again. Sorry if I'm being pedantic :erm:

jtr7 on 19/8/2009 at 01:27

Different concepts of ghosting. You can ghost one space in a mission, or you can ghost entire missions. Unofficial and official. As the player, you play how you want, and most of us change up styles as we go. You can claim to ghost a mission that has impossible areas or objectives. The penalizing comes from being called incorrect for saying so. If every area and objective that can be ghosted is, then it's not incorrect for the player to make the claim. They cannot say they ghosted the entire mission without proof, though. Number thirteen is not possible in all missions, so you must take Section B into account. Section A is the is the ultimate goal, Section B considers the reality of the situations present or not on a per-mission basis.

Hexameron on 19/8/2009 at 03:15

Quote:

Number thirteen is not possible in all missions

Indeed, in which case the mission would be claimed as a failed ghost attempt. In the T2 OM "Life of the Party," I can say I ghosted everything except the golden boy in angelwatch, but I can't claim that I ghosted the mission (I am aware that it's been fully ghosted by Sneak and can also be ghosted using an invis potion).

What I'm trying to understand is this, and I think you've almost answered it jtr7:

Am I right in guessing that the Thief community, at least on the TTLG boards, has adapted the word "ghosting" to loosely translate as a flexible method of sneaking whenever the player desires; not a fixed mode from mission start to mission end?

Casper_aa on 19/8/2009 at 12:45

OH MY GOD! :eek:

I just entered the inner cradle, decided to first make my way up to the top of the observatory and caught my second glimpse of something living here (the first being the thing that darts across when you first enter).

I noticed it seemed to be doing something in the far corner of the room, it kinda appeared to be stuck as it was jerking around a bit and wasn't patrolling or anything. I thought great, i will be able to pick up these gems on each table with no problem then. I eventually go to the side of the room he..uh it..is on and grab the nearest two gems.

But of course the thing is checking out the table with the final two gems so it will be more difficult to snatch them when i basically have to go right up to it. I noticed the pipes infront of the tables though and tried going around them to see if i could get closer while remaining hidden but when i get close to the table i notice that i would actually have to jump over the pipes to grab 'em.

Not wanting to risk making a noise i decide to head back out from behind the pipes when i notice it has begun moving. CRAP! I start heading back behind the pipes when it stops at the entrance. Maybe its just patrolling? Maybe it was investigating but obviously theres nothing there so it will turn away now?
Nope, it began walking my way, and theres no easy way out. I am now panicking like mad, i dont know if it has seen me and has some sadistic way of fooling me into a false sense of security, its not running at me, its not making an aggressive noise. WHAT DO I DO!? AHHH!!

I panic and through like 3-4 flashbombs and it goes down, i stab it 10 times to make sure it's dead, even now im paranoid it will get back up.

All this from the first five minutes of entering the inner cradle, i better lay out a few clean sets of underwear... :cheeky:

PotatoGuy on 19/8/2009 at 14:45

If they are not running, they haven't seen you. ;)
Keep posting, I'm always eager to read 'first impressions posts'.

Casper_aa on 19/8/2009 at 16:50

Very well. :)

I had typed out a few paragraphs, but it seemed too long and not as interesting so i will just mention another big scare i got later:

I entered the lobotomy room, and instantly saw another puppet at the far end. Noting there was supposed to be some special loot in here, i decided to enter further. To make myself feel safer i flash bombed the creature to death and picked up the loot. I could no longer see the body though, so i went round to investigate where i noticed there was a hall or room behind it (havent explored it yet). Still not being able to see the body in the dark i take one step forward when i notice a puppet walking right towards me! AHHH!!!!!

Luckily it was a different puppet as i spotted the body and the new one was only walking towards me, but it was still quite a shock.

These guys seem to be EVERYWHERE, and especially in places where your most likely to be scared by them. I keep spotting them behind me down corridors i had just been... and i thought those areas were clear! :wot:

(update) Just saw a mask on some sort of chair, Is EVERYTHING in this level creepy as hell!? For a second i thought it was some weird creature.

(another update) OK, i am totally certain now that this is the scariest level of any game ever. I had entered White Hall going around the cells checking them for loot. Everytime i so much as hear a crackle sound or a slight dim from a light i have to quit the picklocking minigame. I get around to cell 7, and from reading this i knew there was a puppet inside. Nevertheless i wanted to loot the place so i let it out and eventually it headed in the direction i came from. Nice one.

I head on and get to cell 5, knowing my objective is in there i decide to investigate cell 4 first, which is obviously right next to it. A couple of times the lights dim or i will hear the usual spooky sound and i will hide in the darkness, but i will go back to lockpicking the door.
I get about half way when suddenly the lights start flickering like mad! SHIT!! I try to quit lockpicking but im in the middle of an animation or something and it needs to finish picking the current circle thingy. I finally free myself and take a look to my left and at the crazed creature sprinting right at me!!

I let out a loud scream, press esc to go to the menu. Then i make a mad dash downstairs while im shaking uncontrollably. I cant remember the last time i felt so frightened with anything even outside of games.

jtr7 on 19/8/2009 at 21:01

Quote Posted by Casper_aa

Am I right in guessing that the Thief community, at least on the TTLG boards, has adapted the word "ghosting" to loosely translate as a flexible method of sneaking whenever the player desires; not a fixed mode from mission start to mission end?

There's the strict mission and total campaign Ghost Mode, and there's the ghosting that applies to any point in the game as the mindset and style. Just as a player will enter an area and begin sniping AIs while playing the rest stealthy and non-confrontational, or just blackjack everyone, or get into some crate-stacking, an area can be played ghost style. It's two different things, one term to best describe it. The ghosting SPORT has it's strict rules, but no one's stopping anyone from dabbling in the style on a whim.

smithpd on 21/8/2009 at 05:18

Quote Posted by jtr7

As you know, Ghosting covers only the areas and objectives that can possible be ghosted. Areas and objectives that are impossible to ghost aren't included.

Sorry, I have to disagree. You can't legitimately say you have "ghosted a mission" unless you have ghosted all of it, according to the (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=30310) official rules. More specifically, you have met all required mission objectives without being busted. The term ghosting is meaningless if you simply ignore the hard parts. Of course, you can say you ghosted a particular area, and that is fine because it is unambiguous. You can make a more general statement you ghosted part of the mission, but all that really means is that the ghost attempt was a failure. And, the statement doesn't mean much in the absence of a report that explains what aspects of the mission caused the failure.

Lest you think I am being arbitrary, I was one of the original ghosters at the Eidos forum about 9-10 years ago. There used to be an unofficial committee who provided interpretation of the rules. Individual rulings became kind of tedious. Some discussions became so long that they were a waste of time, so we decided to clarify the rules with written interpretations. Six years ago, I moderated the discussion that led to the creation of the official rules.

TTLG was late in discovering this style of play. Interpretation here has always been a little loosey goosey.

I should add that the Eidos forum still maintains archives of ghosting reports that go back many years. Ghosters are welcome to participate.