Hope Vincent on 23/6/2004 at 19:23

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I thought I was about to finish The Cradle level, but when I got to the[SPOILER]door to jump out the window[/SPOILER] , it wouldn't open because I didn't find more info about the Hag. Can anyone help me find this info?

Thanx,

Hope Vincent :confused:

irR4tiOn4L on 24/6/2004 at 07:06

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maybe im a rock, but the cradle didnt scare me much at all. But i really think its the most brilliant level in the game. AS soon as i saw it from the courtyard, i thought finally architecture that looks tall and looming not squat and ugly. When i went inside, the noises and things were unnerving, but not much.. it gave me a freeze and chill down the spine once or twice when i heard a door opening sound, but after i realised that everything was scripted, which didnt take long, or just ambience, it became trivial. i went into the attic with no qualms whatsoever, and realised that although its a good mission, Ion storm dont understand subtlety properly. I would have loved to see in the first half shadows without a body casting them, opening and closing doors, and evidence of actual supernatural inhabitants. Instead theres nothing. Problem is that i can quickly make out ambience from real in game sounds, and i just begin to mostly ignore the ambience on any higher level. (as in i listen to it, but it doesnt freak me out). When i went into the second half, and into the observatory, i saw the zombie and that was the low point of the level for me. They were totally stupid and not scary. Easy to sneak past and utterly ordinary. But i must say that while from then on the cradle couldnt scare me, i loved the unnerving feeling of travelling the past and being "remembered". Still the easiest level in the game, i got 100% loot without even trying. Still a brilliantly paced level.

BUT
If it were me making it, it would have been a far worse experience. First.. the first half would have contained inhabitants that could cast shadows, see you and react to you, but had no physical presence. While they couldnt really hurt you (or they could, if we were to be real cruel), they would wander around, become silent when seeing you, cast shadows, periodically ahve their shadow dissapear, hide from you and scare you. I would have made some open and close doors madly, others perform other neurotic tasks. Subtlety is the way to go there. The bane of scary stuff is when the player begins to wrap his head around whats going on and either

a) detects that there is nothing to be scared of (in real life there is no such thing as ambient noises. So wed piss ourselves. But in a game, the gamer can learn to distinguish too quickly)

b) becomes proficient at detecting and tracking/avoiding anything of danger, or detects definite patterns of unnerving occurences (eg ambient sounds occuring when you walk over a spot)

While often a scary atmosphere can be created through cues WARNING the player of danger, eg the flickering lights, the danger has to be real considerable and imminent. Eg right round the corner and as deadly as haunts in thief 1 and 2. Unfortunately the zombies in thief 3 dont cut it.
The second half should not have had so many patients so obvious either. This level begs for some real danger. I would also have made the past feature a recreation of the older cradle, and made you at least look like a patient.

How scary or not you found the cradle depends on how you unconsciously react to danger and things you cant detect. If you run around like a big sissy, then yes the cradle would have places where youre running would scare the shit out of you (eg running into a zombie)
If however you begin to stick to shadows or whatever safety you can find, and actively search for danger and control yourself heavily, (that is if you have any sort of courage. someone defined courage as being scared to death but saddling up anyway) then youll find that after a while you simply find nothing, and become totally relaxed.. you learn the patterns of the occurences and ambient sounds and trivialise your experience. Now this all depends on just how far you let yourself sink into a game. If it becomes lifelike to you, then youre likely to run like hell.. ambient sounds dont exist in real life, theres a real cause to them. If however while playing youre mind is too aware of the rules of the game, then you react the other way and diffuse youre own experience. This occurs because the level designer wasnt subtle enough. Thats probably my only criticism of the level.

irR4tiOn4L on 24/6/2004 at 08:40

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is it just me or are my posts so long that people skip my extended evaluative ranting?

it was a good job wasnt it!

Airs on 24/6/2004 at 11:47

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It really is a case of each to their own here, and not everyone is going to be afraid of the Cradle in the way others are. Some will love it, and some will think it could have been better. There’s no accounting for taste. I mean, to take one example, I actually read a review on some backwater review site that criticised Thief for having too much stealth and not enough action! (DUH! Talk about missing the point!). Personally I thought Ion Storm got the level just right. I liked the fact that there’s nobody around in the first part, and the fact that there are only a handful of enemies in the whole level. It’s the atmosphere that’s the real killer. The ambient sounds, the flickering lights, the back story and the fact that you hear lines like “The Cradle knows you now”. All of this makes for a really creepy level. And come on! Who couldn’t fail to get over excited when you’re desperately trying to pick a lock to an inmate’s cell, and hear the distant flickering of a light bulb approaching?

However, there is one thing that bothers me. I’m not totally sure that the twitching undead are actually inmates. You see them wandering the halls, attending operating tables in the Lobotomy theatre, and when you go to the past, some of the shadow staff are patrolling in the exact same places. This seems to suggest that all of the staff burned alive (further suggested when you do get into the staff tower in the past with all the flames etc). But I guess it could be a mix of both. Either way, they freaked me out.

Airs on 24/6/2004 at 13:06

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Ahhhh, I see. Yeah, that makes sense. Now you come to mention it, they do seem to linger around most of the 'toy' areas :)